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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The complaint does exist against Tony Stark. I don't read him either and don't care much about him outside of RDJ, and it might not be as extreme as Batman (though it really should be). but it definitely does exist.
    I'd argue the hatred for Tony in regards to his being wealthy is more extreme than Bruce. I've even seen some fans list Bruce as a "woke" alternative to Tony.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'd argue the hatred for Tony in regards to his being wealthy is more extreme than Bruce. I've even seen some fans list Bruce as a "woke" alternative to Tony.
    Funnily enough, Tony Stark was actually created by Stan Lee to be the very opposite of, well, the ''woke culture'' of the 60's. He took it up as a challenge to create a character that the (presumably) left-leaning young audience would be predisposed to hate, but would be forced to love!

    I actually have a hard time imagining a present-day creator being willing to take the same challenge...

  3. #108
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    'Bruce Wayne is a fake persona and Batman is the real guy. Bruce Wayne died the night his parents died.'

    The idea made no sense to me because who was he between the period his parents were murdered and the bat crashed through his window? He sure has hell didn't think of himself as Batman after he went out the first night. It also oversimplifies a more nuanced idea; both the playboy Bruce Wayne and the grim dark Batman are acts. The real person is somewhere; a logical but driven man fighting to make sure nobody else has to go through what he did.

  4. #109
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Funnily enough, Tony Stark was actually created by Stan Lee to be the very opposite of, well, the ''woke culture'' of the 60's. He took it up as a challenge to create a character that the (presumably) left-leaning young audience would be predisposed to hate, but would be forced to love!

    I actually have a hard time imagining a present-day creator being willing to take the same challenge...
    That's the 'myth' of Stan Lee not the truth, which is often much murkier. Back when Iron Man was created there just wasn't that much opposition to the Vietnam war, that only happened a few years later, an arms dealer turned superhero just wasn't that big of a deal. It was David Michelinie, Bob Layton, Warren Ellis and of course Favreau and RD Jr that turned Iron Man into what he is today.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    That's the 'myth' of Stan Lee not the truth, which is often much murkier. Back when Iron Man was created there just wasn't that much opposition to the Vietnam war, that only happened a few years later, an arms dealer turned superhero just wasn't that big of a deal. It was David Michelinie, Bob Layton, Warren Ellis and of course Favreau and RD Jr that turned Iron Man into what he is today.
    I don't think it was the Vietnam War part which Stan Lee believed the readers would hate, but the general rich industrialist and playboy who sells arms angle.

    Though Stan Lee's Tony Stark was pretty plain vanilla compared to RDJ's portrayal of the ''Billionaire, Genius, Playboy, Philantrophist"

  6. #111
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Yeah, RD Jr turned him into a quipster but my point is, that while Stan Lee, Larry Leiber, Don Heck and Jack Kirby may have created Iron Man, it was people like David Michelinie and Bob Layton that made him who he is today.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Agreed.

    Honestly, I think it goes hand in hand with the notion that Bruce is as unhinged as the villains. Because frankly, if we literally take it that ''Bruce Wayne is the mask, Batman is the real person'' then Bruce is insane!

    The essence of the Batman mythos is a man putting on a mask to become a symbol - a symbol of fear for criminals and a symbol of hope for the innocent. But underneath the mask is a man. Once again, this is another aspect the Nolanverse handled well. Its worth noting that Christian Bale is credited as Bruce Wayne in all three movies. Not Batman and not even Bruce Wayne/Batman, but just Bruce Wayne, because that's who he's really playing. Bruce Wayne in turn plays the roles of the billionaire playboy and philantrophist, and of the masked vigilante Batman.

    I'm okay with exploring the long-term psychological ramifications of this double-life on Bruce's psyche. I'm okay with the idea of Batman coming to dominate Bruce's psyche, and him having to deal with that over time. I'm even okay with interpretations where a seriously disturbed Bruce starts to believe that his life as 'Bruce Wayne' is fake and 'Batman' is who he really is, provided we understand that this is coming from his obsession or trauma and is not a healthy thing. But ''Bruce is the mask, Batman is real'' as a simple statement of fact to be accepted at face value without any introspection of its implications is something I just do not agree with.
    Yeah, this is one of those ideas the Nolan films did better in my opinion on Bruce than the DCAU crew did with Bats even if it wasn't executed perfectly by the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'd argue the hatred for Tony in regards to his being wealthy is more extreme than Bruce. I've even seen some fans list Bruce as a "woke" alternative to Tony.
    Interesting, I've usually seen the opposite with the argument that the start of Stark's hero career (in the MCU at least, I don't read much Marvel so I can't speak there) with realizing his company and business made the world a worst place makes him a more appealing figure than Bruce. Different circles, I guess.
    Last edited by Gaius; 07-23-2021 at 09:48 AM.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Yeah, this is one of those ideas the Nolan films did better in my opinion on Bruce than the DCAU crew did with Bats even if it wasn't executed perfectly by the end.



    Interesting, I've usually seen the opposite with the argument that the start of Stark's hero career (in the MCU at least, I don't read much Marvel so I can't speak there) with realizing his company and business made the world a worst place makes him a more appealing figure than Bruce.
    When it comes to the DCAU, I think BTAS did a pretty good job balancing Bruce Wayne and Batman. Yeah, Conroy put on his 'fake' voice as Bruce and his real one as Batman...but that was for the billionaire playboy and industrialist Bruce who is a bit of a construct. Even if Batman was more reflective of the 'real' Bruce, it was clear that Bruce was the real deal, even if he could only truly be himself with Alfred, Dick, Leslie and the few others close to him. But the public Bruce on ths show was also pretty reflective of the 'real' Bruce as well (they certainly didn't overdo the playboy act the way some other adaptations do).

    Its later in the DCAU that the idea of Batman being the 'real deal' started to seep in. I recall the Batman Beyond episode where Bruce has a hallucination but knows that the voice calling him ''Bruce'' isn't his voice, because he apparently calls himself ''Batman'' Which is either ridiculous or disturbing, maybe a bit of both.

    When it comes to Tony Stark, I suppose the fact that the first film focuses on Tony introspecting on his own business and the harm its doing on the world, and later moving out of weapons and investing in stuff like clean energy, appeals to 'woke' audiences.

    Its kinda interesting though - Disney is often perceived to be the ultimate 'woke' corporation in the entertainment business, but by far the most iconic and popular MCU character remains a white billionaire (ex)womanizer who's family fortune was built on selling weapons and who's family has had a long association with the military-industrial complex and the US intelligence community.

  9. #114
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    I remember Dini saying that in B:TAS that neither Bruce Wayne nor Batman is the real guy, the real person is the Detective, sitting in the cave chatting with Alfred about the latest case. In his most recent appearance at con which I remember seeing, he pretty much reiterated the same thing. Probably why he is one of the strongest Batman writers and how he nails the human aspect of the character.

    Timm - based on his interview for the Strange Days animated short -- seems to think Batman should just be a walking automaton who fights crime with no real friends or family beyond what's necessary for the narrative purpose. He doesn't even to think Gordon, Alfred or Robin are all that vital. Which goes to show just how important Burnett and Dini were to the success of the DCAU Batman.
    Last edited by John Venus; 07-24-2021 at 12:29 AM.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I remember Dini saying that in B:TAS that neither Bruce Wayne nor Batman is the real guy, the real person is the guy sitting in the Detective, sitting in the cave chatting with Alfred about the latest case. In his most recent appearance con that I remember seeing, he pretty much reiterated the same thing. Probably why he is one of the strongest Batman writers and how he nails the human aspect of the character.

    Timm - based on his interview for the Strange Days animated short -- seems to think Batman should just be a walking automaton who fights crime with no real friends or family beyond what's necessary for the narrative purpose. He doesn't even to think Gordon, Alfred or Robin are all that vital. Which goes to show just how important Burnett and Dini were to the success of the DCAU Batman.
    A few months ago I watched a documentary on the making of BTAS, and Bruce Timm seemed more interested in the iconography of Batman and his world, while Dini and Burnett were the ones focused on the actual storytelling. So yeah, I think your surmise may well be accurate.

  11. #116
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    Dini writes one of the few Bruces who…

    - Feels completely natural sitting down by his girlfriend’s bed-side and taking his time to express his feelings to her,

    - Feels completely comfortable walking into he dankest, darkest, kinkiest part of Gotham’s night-club scene, be on speaking terms with its personnel when investigating a murder becaus ehe treats them like human beings,

    - Brutally got to town on Scarecrow for being a sadistic, child-torturing creep,

    - And be a general badass all around, without being an asshole.

    Dini gets the complete package of Bruce Wayne and Batman. Timm can direct a particular type of Batman, but it has limits and flaws - he’s such a power fantasy and escapist character that he can lose some dimensions compared to other versions… and he can’t help himself but pimp out super homie s to Batman in a sometimes very dubious (Wonder Woman) to outright disgusting (Babs in TKJ) way.
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  12. #117
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    'Bruce Wayne is a fake persona and Batman is the real guy. Bruce Wayne died the night his parents died.'

    The idea made no sense to me because who was he between the period his parents were murdered and the bat crashed through his window? He sure has hell didn't think of himself as Batman after he went out the first night. It also oversimplifies a more nuanced idea; both the playboy Bruce Wayne and the grim dark Batman are acts. The real person is somewhere; a logical but driven man fighting to make sure nobody else has to go through what he did.
    My take is Batman is who he chooses to be, and his public Bruce Wayne identity is a mask. But like you said, there a third identity in there that he hides from almost everyone.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    My take is Batman is who he chooses to be, and his public Bruce Wayne identity is a mask. But like you said, there a third identity in there that he hides from almost everyone.
    Makes sense.

    That said, when it comes to the 'public' Bruce Wayne as well, I prefer if he isn't too much of an act. I kinda like to think of the 'public' Bruce as being what Bruce Wayne would have been like had his parents not been killed. (I similarly prefer the 'public' Clark Kent to be what he would have been like had he been the biological son of Jonathan and Martha who had no alien heritage, powers or dual identity).

    Maybe he plays up certain aspects of the playboy/rich businessman persona in public, but it shouldn't be 100% an act.

    Basically, my point of comparision here is the way Christian Bale portrays the 'public' Bruce Wayne in Begins vs. in TDK and TDKR. In the first film, he's just creating his public persona so he puts on an act of being a douchey billionaire playboy (I mean he literally takes pointers from Alfred on ''what does someone like me do''). But by TDK, while he still acts the carefree playboy in public, he does show a bit more of himself, like for instance, in his interactions with Harvey Dent. Throwing a fundraiser for Harvey in the interests of Gotham's future is precisely the sort of thing Bruce might genuienly want to do, beyond just 'pretending' to be a philantrophist. Likewise in TDKR, during his interactions with Selina, and also in the fact that after quitting the cowl, he devoted Wayne Enterprise's resources to developing clean energy (not to mention visiting boy's homes he's funding and interacting with the kids, as John Blake remembers).

    All the live-action actors have actually handled this aspect pretty well. Michael Keaton's Bruce sure isn't putting on an act...he lets the world see the 'real' him in all his neurotic glory. Val Kilmer's public Bruce is pretty much the same as his private one. Ditto George Clooney. And Ben Affleck does a great job too.

  14. #119
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I remember Dini saying that in B:TAS that neither Bruce Wayne nor Batman is the real guy, the real person is the Detective, sitting in the cave chatting with Alfred about the latest case. In his most recent appearance at con which I remember seeing, he pretty much reiterated the same thing. Probably why he is one of the strongest Batman writers and how he nails the human aspect of the character.

    Timm - based on his interview for the Strange Days animated short -- seems to think Batman should just be a walking automaton who fights crime with no real friends or family beyond what's necessary for the narrative purpose. He doesn't even to think Gordon, Alfred or Robin are all that vital. Which goes to show just how important Burnett and Dini were to the success of the DCAU Batman.
    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Dini writes one of the few Bruces who…

    - Feels completely natural sitting down by his girlfriend’s bed-side and taking his time to express his feelings to her,

    - Feels completely comfortable walking into he dankest, darkest, kinkiest part of Gotham’s night-club scene, be on speaking terms with its personnel when investigating a murder becaus ehe treats them like human beings,

    - Brutally got to town on Scarecrow for being a sadistic, child-torturing creep,

    - And be a general badass all around, without being an asshole.

    Dini gets the complete package of Bruce Wayne and Batman. Timm can direct a particular type of Batman, but it has limits and flaws - he’s such a power fantasy and escapist character that he can lose some dimensions compared to other versions… and he can’t help himself but pimp out super homie s to Batman in a sometimes very dubious (Wonder Woman) to outright disgusting (Babs in TKJ) way.
    BTAS was really a lightning in a bottle show that worked due to all the creators involved balancing each other out. Timm was vital to the show's success, but I think we've seen enough to know that the collaboration with the other creators and the limitations placed on them that they creatively worked around yielded better results. When Timm is left to his own devices, we get much more dicey ideas and executions. We complain about the Bat-favoritism in JLU, but I don't think Timm even completely gets Batman's character. Not without Dini by his side anyway. Also of the two creators, while Dini wouldn't be my first choice for Superman or Wonder Woman, at this point I'd trust them in his hands a little more than Timm. Same with the Bat-family, as Timm doesn't seem to care for Dick and has some very uncomfortable ideas as far as Barbara goes.

    The upcoming HBO cartoon will certainly be interesting.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    My take is Batman is who he chooses to be, and his public Bruce Wayne identity is a mask. But like you said, there a third identity in there that he hides from almost everyone.
    I always felt that his real personality was something in between the shallow playboy Bruce Wayne persona and the broken, tortured Batman persona.

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