What mainstream Batman idea you personally disagree with?

[The World]

The attempts to weave mental illness into the Batman books has been laughable worst of all the attempt to paint Bruce as paranoid and obsessed while still running the Bruce is always right narrative. Paranoia by it's nature means you have a poor grasp of the world around you yet the writers treat it more like a superpower that lets Bruce become hyper aware of all immediate dangers. As bad as that is it really doesn't compare to how terrible the attempts to weave these elements into the villains narratives have been. It's all just laughable and clear they just bring this up to add drama to the story or worst as an out for why characters shouldn't be punished for their actions.

[SiegePerilous02]

For something a bit more controversial - I don't care for Alfred as part of Bruce's childhood or raising him. It ties in way too much with Bruce's historically emotionally unhealthy state in the modern era, and I think it is an unhealthy dynamic in his adulthood as well. It reframes his actions/choices around taking Dick (with some versions even having him have to be schooled by Alfred to take an interest) and to me displaced quite a bit of Dick's role as the most-trusted to Alfred.

Yeah I really don't care for this one either. It worked out ok in some other media portrayals, but I don't think it's ever worked in the comics. Alfred is supposed to be competent and likeable, and I think making him the most ineffectual guardian ever who enables all of Bruce's tendencies from a young age is a bad look. He had no problem being loyal and close to Bruce pre-COIE, so it seems like an unnecessary wrinkle in their relationship with unintended bad consequences for character writing.

And yes it displaced Dick a bit and contributes to their relationship having friction even earlier than it should. Bruce shouldn't need prompting from Alfred to take an interest, at least when he first meets Dick. Their friction should come later when Dick is becoming an adult and neither are great at dealing with the change.

[Frontier]

I guess it helps when you're introduced to it because I've seen Alfred as Bruce's father figure so much that I don't really see the point in him not being. I don't think it's a dealbreaker for his relationship with Dick either because it's a separate relationship...but we've discussed this in other threads .

Tom Taylor did a great Father's Day story with the relationship.

[Restingvoice]

Either Alfred encouraging it or he was against it, depending on which origin and what's Bruce's reason or how far he goes in the training or neglect. Either way someone's gonna be made to be the irresponsible one, and depending on how you look at it, it can be both of them.

This is for me is a lost cause because it goes with trying to justify kid sidekick in a realistic or dangerous setting.

Oh another one

The Waynes walking down the scary alley for shortcut

Bring it back to Joe Chill jumping out of the alley and put emphasize on Park Row being safe. People forget about that part. They can still park their car a bit away since it's in the old town, but the neighborhood shouldn't look scary.

[Frontier]

Either Alfred encouraging it or he was against it, depending on which origin and what's Bruce's reason or how far he goes in the training or neglect. Either way someone's gonna be made to be the irresponsible one, and depending on how you look at it, it can be both of them.

I mean, it also depends on how you look at Bruce becoming Batman. Like, you can see it as being very unhealthy but it wasn't necessarily a bad thing in an overall sense kind of like how the murder of two innocent people ended up creating one of the world's greatest crime-fighters because he lost his childhood.

[Restingvoice]

Bruce becoming Batman is easier because he just runs off on his own the moment he's of age.

[bat39]

I mean, it also depends on how you look at Bruce becoming Batman. Like, you can see it as being very unhealthy but it wasn't necessarily a bad thing in an overall sense kind of like how the murder of two innocent people ended up creating one of the world's greatest crime-fighters because he lost his childhood.

Given the way Alfred's background has been fleshed out, it kinda makes sense why he wouldn't necessarily be totally against Bruce becoming Batman. I mean, if any guardian of Bruce's was going to help him become Batman, it'd be the former soldier and secret agent.

I haven't watched Gotham beyond Season 1, but there's one episode that stands out to me all these years later - when Bruce is getting bullied by some kid at school. I don't remember the details, but Alfred basically helps Bruce beat the **** out of the bully. And I couldn't but help notice that it foreshadowed, in a way, their working relationship once Bruce became Batman.

Alfred had a ward who was consumed by grief and anger, but wanted to harness it to make a positive change in the world. Nine people out of ten would think the idea of helping their ward become a masked vigilante was ludicrous at best...but Alfred happened to be the tenth one who believed that this would not only be a good thing for Bruce, but a good thing for Gotham as well.

I also feel that Alfred, to an extent, lives vicariously through Batman, in that its a chance for him to do some good and be part of the action, harking back to his own former life as a secret agent.

[SiegePerilous02]

I guess it helps when you're introduced to it because I've seen Alfred as Bruce's father figure so much that I don't really see the point in him not being. I don't think it's a dealbreaker for his relationship with Dick either because it's a separate relationship...but we've discussed this in other threads .

Tom Taylor did a great Father's Day story with the relationship.

I think I was introduced to Alfred being a father-ish figure first through BTAS, but even then after reading some pre-Crisis stuff I started preferring that dynamic. Also as I became a bigger fan of Dick Grayson, I like his status as the most important Bat-ally being retained.

I also think that if the characters went through the first 4-5 decades of their published existence without this being a factor, it can't be all that important

I mean, it also depends on how you look at Bruce becoming Batman. Like, you can see it as being very unhealthy but it wasn't necessarily a bad thing in an overall sense kind of like how the murder of two innocent people ended up creating one of the world's greatest crime-fighters because he lost his childhood.

It depends on the versions of Batman I guess.

That's how we should view his becoming Batman, but when we have some versions committing Tower of Babel, OMAC, War Games, the various manipulations/abuses towards his kids and allies and the villains still running amok with higher and higher body counts...it's hard to see much good overall. And Alfred kind of drew the short straw that he was retconned into Bruce's guardian in the continuity that would eventually devolve into Bruce being an awful human being at times.

[Frontier]

I think I was introduced to Alfred being a father-ish figure first through BTAS, but even then after reading some pre-Crisis stuff I started preferring that dynamic. Also as I became a bigger fan of Dick Grayson, I like his status as the most important Bat-ally being retained.

I also think that if the characters went through the first 4-5 decades of their published existence without this being a factor, it can't be all that important

The dynamic doesn't really feel that different in the grand scheme of things as far as what I think people expect from it, the relationship is just deeper between the two, and I don't think that takes away from Dick who is still super-important just not attached to Bruce 24/7 anymore (aside from crossovers). It's just a different relationship.

Of course I think the decades where it is is a factor now dwarf it so...majority rule :P?

It depends on the versions of Batman I guess.

That's how we should view his becoming Batman, but when we have some versions committing Tower of Babel, OMAC, War Games, the various manipulations/abuses towards his kids and allies and the villains still running amok with higher and higher body counts...it's hard to see much good overall. And Alfred kind of drew the short straw that he was retconned into Bruce's guardian in the continuity that would eventually devolve into Bruce being an awful human being at times.

Yeah, but a lot of that came after severe emotional trauma and experiences that happened later in his career as Batman.

[thwhtGuardian]

I disagree with the belief that the mantle of Batman lives and dies with Bruce Wayne.

I don't think that's a super mainstream idea within comics; Morrison's whole arc was about how Batman literally lasts forever.

Even the Dark Knight Trilogy went that route with it being implied that John "Robin" Blake becomes Batman after Bruce retires.

[SiegePerilous02]

The dynamic doesn't really feel that different in the grand scheme of things as far as what I think people expect from it, the relationship is just deeper between the two, and I don't think that takes away from Dick who is still super-important just not attached to Bruce 24/7 anymore (aside from crossovers). It's just a different relationship.

Of course I think the decades where it is is a factor now dwarf it so...majority rule :P?

I don't feel that Dick is as important anymore, or at least it's mostly just lip service coasting on his iconic time as Robin and being a fan favorite. He definitely doesn't feel like the most important Bat-ally anymore, Alfred has eclipsed him in that role mostly due to a more regular use in other media. But the changes in dynamics brought about by the retcons have contributed to that

Nah, from Year One until now is still a few years short of the period from Detective #27 to Crisis. To me, it's in the same category as "the Kents being alive" as far as modern ideas people got used to as opposed to something that is actually essential.

Yeah, but a lot of that came after severe emotional trauma and experiences that happened later in his career as Batman.

So? That just means Alfred enabled Bruce to be set on a path that was going to inevitably result in this.
And of course the real reason why is DC derailed Bruce's character and are in love with misery porn, but the unintended side effect is that Alfred failed Martha and Thomas pretty bad. If Bruce has to be a **** up, let that be Phillip's burden. Or actually acknowledge how bad of a job Alfred did more frequently.

[Frontier]

I don't feel that Dick is as important anymore, or at least it's mostly just lip service coasting on his iconic time as Robin and being a fan favorite. He definitely doesn't feel like the most important Bat-ally anymore, Alfred has eclipsed him in that role mostly due to a more regular use in other media. But the changes in dynamics brought about by the retcons have contributed to that

I think that has more to do with Nightwing and Dick moving on than a change in Bruce's history with Alfred, but I've read a lot of stories where it shows how much trust and faith Bruce and Dick still place in each other and how Dick functions in the Batfamily differently from Alfred did. Alfred's not the one who took over as Batman.

Nah, from Year One until now is still a few years short of the period from Detective #27 to Crisis. To me, it's in the same category as "the Kents being alive" as far as modern ideas people got used to as opposed to something that is actually essential.

We're getting there .

So? That just means Alfred enabled Bruce to be set on a path that was going to inevitably result in this.
And of course the real reason why is DC derailed Bruce's character and are in love with misery porn, but the unintended side effect is that Alfred failed Martha and Thomas pretty bad. If Bruce has to be a **** up, let that be Phillip's burden. Or actually acknowledge how bad of a job Alfred did more frequently.

Being Batman was never going to be easy but I don't think anyone could have predicted the exact tragedies that happened, and I don't think those outweigh the net good that Batman's existence has caused. It's not what Thomas and Martha would've wanted, but it's what Bruce wanted, and it made the world a better place.

I guess I can't see it as a bad job because I see Batman as good.

[Restingvoice]

I don't think that's a super mainstream idea within comics; Morrison's whole arc was about how Batman literally lasts forever.

Even the Dark Knight Trilogy went that route with it being implied that John "Robin" Blake becomes Batman after Bruce retires.

Yeah I most often see that opinion coming from fans. In comics itself there are loads of future Batman. Terry's been canonized. Dick. Helena in Bat Cat, basically. Thomas in New 52 Earth-2, then Dick again. Damian in 666. Tim in Tynion's alt future.

[SiegePerilous02]

Being Batman was never going to be easy but I don't think anyone could have predicted the exact tragedies that happened, and I don't think those outweigh the net good that Batman's existence has caused. It's not what Thomas and Martha would've wanted, but it's what Bruce wanted, and it made the world a better place.

I guess I can't see it as a bad job because I see Batman as good.

Well nobody could have predicted the specific tragedies, but common sense dictates that there'd be a lot of weird and dangerous stuff that is bound to happen. Guy was planning on dressing up as Dracula and throwing himself into situations that could result in severe injury or death every night. If the kid I was tasked with taking care of started heading in that direction, I'd put him in therapy and encourage him to use his money in other ways.

Is there a net good to Batman's existence in the modern incarnations? The way comic book status quos work, plus modern comics tendencies to escalate things, Batman hasn't had much of a visible positive impact on Gotham, and there is all his crimes against his kids and allies (in Gotham and in the JL). Maybe growing up without Alfred in pre-COIE allowed Bruce to become more self reliant instead of relying on his enabling man servant who continues to enable him as an adult? And that's why he was more well adjusted than the at times spoiled man-brat he is Flanderized as now. Like I'd see Batman as good if he was written as the hero he was meant to be/used to be, but that isn't always the case if we take a "it all happened" approach to the modern canons.

[Micael]

Well nobody could have predicted the specific tragedies, but common sense dictates that there'd be a lot of weird and dangerous stuff that is bound to happen. Guy was planning on dressing up as Dracula and throwing himself into situations that could result in severe injury or death every night. If the kid I was tasked with taking care of started heading in that direction, I'd put him in therapy and encourage him to use his money in other ways.

Is there a net good to Batman's existence in the modern incarnations? The way comic book status quos work, plus modern comics tendencies to escalate things, Batman hasn't had much of a visible positive impact on Gotham, and there is all his crimes against his kids and allies (in Gotham and in the JL). Maybe growing up without Alfred in pre-COIE allowed Bruce to become more self reliant instead of relying on his enabling man servant who continues to enable him as an adult? And that's why he was more well adjusted than the at times spoiled man-brat he is Flanderized as now. Like I'd see Batman as good if he was written as the hero he was meant to be/used to be, but that isn't always the case if we take a "it all happened" approach to the modern canons.

Wow I think you just might have figured out the reason modern Batman has become an insufferable man-child, having a butler who enables everything he does since childhood would turn any person into an egotistical snobby dictator. Also we all know Batman's characterization pretty much varies depending on the cast around him, writers will throw Bruce's character under the bus if it makes the other characters can look better. How many times have we seen Bruce doing his "thick headed arrogant" routine only for Alfred to give some speech and make him reconsider his decisions? A batman who started without Alfred is probably more morally conscious and doesn't require constant pet talks to realize that he's doing something wrong.

And don't get me wrong I love Alfred and what he brings as a character but there's really something to be said about how he impacts Bruce's characterization for the better or the worse.