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  1. #196
    Incredible Member Sebastianne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Well, in the old myths, Hera seemingly didn't see Zeus's behavior as "abusing" the mortals he cheated on her with.
    Because the old myths were written and interpreted by men at a time when the role of men and their acts against women were not questioned, I mean, kidnapping and raping a woman to make her his wife was well regarded until approximately 1940.
    Having said this, it seems unwise to me to analyze this work of fiction and the behavior of the goddesses with those that were invented and / or appropriated under a totally patriarchal culture.
    And it seems to me that calling "men hater" those who seek justice for abuses perpetrated to a gender or, as the text says to all those who are not men, is not understanding where this world is moving now.
    Last edited by Sebastianne; 12-04-2021 at 05:48 AM.

  2. #197
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Well, in the old myths, Hera seemingly didn't see Zeus's behavior as "abusing" the mortals he cheated on her with.
    Wonder Woman has never been concerned with the old myths. Why start now?

    Also why does it always seem changes to the goddesses or the Amazons to fit the feminist lens gets questioned a lot, but Zeus getting off lightly in media in general never gets commented on?

  3. #198
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    Kind amusing pre-New 52 I’d have said it’s odd the Greek Goddess of Women was pretty much a footnote in WW’s world but now with Azz, Historia, and I guess WG Hera’s gotten more focus than even Athena and Aphrodite.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Wonder Woman has never been concerned with the old myths. Why start now?

    Also why does it always seem changes to the goddesses or the Amazons to fit the feminist lens gets questioned a lot, but Zeus getting off lightly in media in general never gets commented on?
    Jimenez actually brought this up an interview how it seems people get real sticklers for accuracy in Greek Myth in general, but definitely in regards to WW’s world, but no one really seems to cry boo if you go widely off course with something like Norse mythology (see Marvel )

  4. #199
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Wonder Woman has never been concerned with the old myths. Why start now?

    Also why does it always seem changes to the goddesses or the Amazons to fit the feminist lens gets questioned a lot, but Zeus getting off lightly in media in general never gets commented on?
    The Lightning Thief, Blood of Zeus, Wrath of the Titans and even the first Wonder Woman movie all have Zeus filtered through a “New Testament God” lens.
    ~I just keep swimming through these threads~

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    The Lightning Thief, Blood of Zeus, Wrath of the Titans and even the first Wonder Woman movie all have Zeus filtered through a “New Testament God” lens.
    Yeah, it's an icky, white-washing of the character done for simplification or just the sub-conscious (or conscious) result of a misogynist, patriarchal society.

    Wonder Woman should always serve as a panacea to such ideas. However, that gets difficult when she's considered the daughter of Zeus, though I can see ways a good writer could use that horrible origin to subvert these ideas. It has yet to happen though...

  6. #201
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimbo View Post
    Yeah, it's an icky, white-washing of the character done for simplification or just the sub-conscious (or conscious) result of a misogynist, patriarchal society.

    Wonder Woman should always serve as a panacea to such ideas. However, that gets difficult when she's considered the daughter of Zeus, though I can see ways a good writer could use that horrible origin to subvert these ideas. It has yet to happen though...
    Oddly, Azzarello kinda sorta almost had a neat way of doing it. Diana brought Zola and Hera together and it could have also included Hippolyta if he decided to go that route. All the women Zeus pitted against each other becoming friend and deciding he was the asshole and treating him as the villain could have salvaged the story arc.

    But he became Zeke and got a "get out of jail free" card despite being the root cause of all the problems, so whatever.

  7. #202
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    The Lightning Thief, Blood of Zeus, Wrath of the Titans and even the first Wonder Woman movie all have Zeus filtered through a “New Testament God” lens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shimbo View Post
    Yeah, it's an icky, white-washing of the character done for simplification or just the sub-conscious (or conscious) result of a misogynist, patriarchal society.

    Wonder Woman should always serve as a panacea to such ideas. However, that gets difficult when she's considered the daughter of Zeus, though I can see ways a good writer could use that horrible origin to subvert these ideas. It has yet to happen though...
    Amusingly, the God of War games are probably the most prominent example in (relatively) recent media where Zeus is a straight up antagonist.

  8. #203
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Amusingly, the God of War games are probably the most prominent example in (relatively) recent media where Zeus is a straight up antagonist.
    It helps when the game pitch is "kill all gods" to make sure they don't come out as good people.

    I notice they are doing that with the Norse gods as well (mainly Thor).
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 12-04-2021 at 10:45 AM.
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  9. #204
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Amusingly, the God of War games are probably the most prominent example in (relatively) recent media where Zeus is a straight up antagonist.
    It always bugged me how the female gods were basically just treated like holes for Kratos while all the male gods got really cool boss fights.

    Of course, we do get ancillary female characters like the Fates, the Furies, Euryale, and Persephone who all get great showings, but it's a bit unfortunate we didn't get to see a cool Aphrodite or Demeter or even Athena (who plays a huge role in the series) boss fight.

  10. #205
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    It always bugged me how the female gods were basically just treated like holes for Kratos while all the male gods got really cool boss fights.

    Of course, we do get ancillary female characters like the Fates, the Furies, Euryale, and Persephone who all get great showings, but it's a bit unfortunate we didn't get to see a cool Aphrodite or Demeter or even Athena (who plays a huge role in the series) boss fight.
    They could have done something fun with Demeter as a nature deity (lots of vines and plants to slash up like Poison Ivy) or Artemis.

    But yeah, that's kind of why I found it funny since that series isn't particularly subversive but now has a more consistent track record than other Greek myth-based stuff when it comes to depicting Zeus as a baddie.

  11. #206
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    It always bugged me how the female gods were basically just treated like holes for Kratos while all the male gods got really cool boss fights.

    Of course, we do get ancillary female characters like the Fates, the Furies, Euryale, and Persephone who all get great showings, but it's a bit unfortunate we didn't get to see a cool Aphrodite or Demeter or even Athena (who plays a huge role in the series) boss fight.
    Artemis was to be a playable character in Ascension but that was cut early in development.
    ~I just keep swimming through these threads~

  12. #207
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastianne View Post
    And it seems to me that calling "men hater" those who seek justice for abuses perpetrated to a gender or, as the text says to all those who are not men, is not understanding where this world is moving now.
    Is it "justice" if you re-write the story to vilify one side, then punish that side for the crimes you just made up?

    That's basically what you just described. You started with the idea that the people writing the story were functionally criminals and accused an entire culture of being rapists:
    Because the old myths were written and interpreted by men at a time when the role of men and their acts against women were not questioned, I mean, kidnapping and raping a woman to make her his wife was well regarded until approximately 1940.
    And then used that as an excuse to re-write everything to fit your narrative.
    Having said this, it seems unwise to me to analyze this work of fiction and the behavior of the goddesses with those that were invented and / or appropriated under a totally patriarchal culture.
    Also... how many of the writers of the original stories were men?

  13. #208
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Is it "justice" if you re-write the story to vilify one side, then punish that side for the crimes you just made up?

    That's basically what you just described. You started with the idea that the people writing the story were functionally criminals and accused an entire culture of being rapists:
    Crimes against women by men are hardly "made up." The comic isn't saying that Greek culture specifically is full of rapists, it's an institutionalized thing across mankind in general. Do you really think rape, murder, slavery, assault, genital mutilation, etc. are all made up?
    And the thought processes that went into the original Amazon myths (that they are untamed, fearsome monsters to be feared and put in their place by the likes of Heracles) didn't have a high view of women.

    In the original myths, the goddesses were either complicit with all this, had their own flaws or were dismissed. Stuff like Hera being strung up by Zeus so he can use her for target practice with his lightning bolts was treated as a normal thing. So the goddesses are having their characters being re-examined while the behaviors of the male Gods and the stuff they allow mankind to get away with are being called out. Which is consistent with how the Wonder Woman IP has ALWAYS used Greek myth figures.

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    And then used that as an excuse to re-write everything to fit your narrative.
    Rewrite the Greek myths? You know they aren't consistent to begin with, right?
    We have a lot of media re-writing Zeus to be a benevolent all loving patriarch who dispenses justice or re-writes Hades into be an evil stand in for Satan. I'd hardly call a book making Hera a force for good against her husband uncalled for.

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Also... how many of the writers of the original stories were men?
    For the original myths? I'm pretty sure most of the big name original poets were men. If not all of them.

    Also, have you even read this book yet?

  14. #209
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Crimes against women by men are hardly "made up."
    That's missing the point entirely. You wasted an entire post ranting about whether crime exists when the discussion is about WHO is guilty of crimes and which crimes.

    Painting the male gods uniformly with the giant black hat brush.... ruins the story. The setting doesn't work if you have a line where one side is good and the other transparently evil.

    And no... not all of the writers of the mythology were men. Go look it up if you want to know the full list. Also, it wasn't written solely for the enjoyment of men.

  15. #210
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    That's missing the point entirely. You wasted an entire post ranting about whether crime exists when the discussion is about WHO is guilty of crimes and which crimes.

    Painting the male gods uniformly with the giant black hat brush.... ruins the story. The setting doesn't work if you have a line where one side is good and the other transparently evil.

    And no... not all of the writers of the mythology were men. Go look it up if you want to know the full list. Also, it wasn't written solely for the enjoyment of men.
    But again, the myths themselves are not consistent, and some variations of Zeus and Poseidon as rapists (just ask Ovid's Medusa). Which a book that takes a stand against misogyny is going to call out. And it's not even clear what crimes these versions of the Greek gods have committed themselves, if any. They are just entitled and ignorant/apathetic to the crimes mortal men commit against women and don't see it as an issue they need to address it. There is already room for nuance in this version of Ares, Hermes might side with the women like he did in Perez, and Hades seems to be a neutral party.

    Even if the book is taking liberties with the myths to prove its point...how is that different than every single WW comic that came before it? The foundation of this IP is Marston making a very clear line of good vs. evil with simplified versions of Aphrodite/Athena vs. Ares. This is no different than that, it actually has more room for characterizations.

    Have you read the actual scene in question before analyzing it?

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