Are The Outsiders DC’s version of The Defenders

[lemonpeace]

My opinion is if that would be the plan, you should not do The Outsiders, then. Like, if the connection to Batman is perceived as bad, then do something else. Because, while you CAN sever the connection with Batman, The Outsiders is always going to carry around that lineage and history. Especially when it's so easy and tempting to use Batman or Batman related things (which the Outsiders inherently is) in the stories in an effort to gain interest.

eeeeh that sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Outsiders are supposed to be; the fact that in outside media they are presented as their own entity independent of Batman pretty much underscores that. the reason the team was formed was because Batman needed heroes who could work outside the purview of mainstream superheroics. a team that operates outside the purview of mainstream superheroics, nothing about that premise inherently requires Batman to work, which is why they drop him for every other incarnation of the team. there's a reason they have had just as many incarnations of the team without Batman and his name in their title than there are with him (actually i think technically they have more without him). even just looking at the ratio of Bat characters to general DC universe characters who largely do their own thing without Batman, the idea that that the Outsiders are inherently Batman related characters is actually pretty laughable.

Bats:
Batman
Nightwing
Cassandra Cain
Duke Thomas
Catwoman

DC heroes:
Black Lightning
Geo-Force
Katana
Thunder
Metamorpho
Green Arrow
Grace Choi
Martian Manhunter
Lady Shiva
Creeper
Jade
Arsenal
(the list goes on, these are just the recognizable names)

these characters may not be the most prominent characters in the shared universe but DC purposely uses them all over the landscape because they recognize they are more than Bat minions. DC's willingness to regress to resting on their laurels using Batman to as a marketing gimmick for the team doesn't mean the team is inherently unable to be it's own entity, it just demonstrates an inability to capitalize and build on yet another property that's not Batman or Justice League related.

[king81992]

eeeeh that sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Outsiders are supposed to be; the fact that in outside media they are presented as their own entity independent of Batman pretty much underscores that. the reason the team was formed was because Batman needed heroes who could work outside the purview of mainstream superheroics. a team that operates outside the purview of mainstream superheroics, nothing about that premise inherently requires Batman to work, which is why they drop him for every other incarnation of the team. there's a reason they have had just as many incarnations of the team without Batman and his name in their title than there are with him (actually i think technically they have more). even just looking at the ratio of Bat characters to general DC universe characters who largely do their own thing without Batman, the idea that that the Outsiders are inherently Batman related characters is actually pretty laughable.

Bats:
Batman
Nightwing
Cassandra Cain
Duke Thomas
Catwoman

DC heroes:
Black Lightning
Geo-Force
Katana
Thunder
Metamorpho
Green Arrow
Grace Choi
Martian Manhunter
Lady Shiva
Creeper
Jade
Arsenal
(the list goes on, these are just the recognizable names)

these characters may not be the most prominent characters in the shared universe but DC purposely uses them all over the landscape because they recognize they are more than Bat minions. DC's willingness to regress to resting on their laurels using Batman to as a marketing gimmick for the team doesn't mean the team is inherently unable to be it's own entity, it just demonstrates an inability to capitalize and build on yet another property that's not Batman or Justice League related.

Agreed.

There are multiple plot lines that could carry a comic using the characters(minus the Bat Family) listed and their relatives/ supporting cast. Even if you relegated those characters to a supporting/ mentor role and focused on an all-new version of the team, there are plenty of compelling stories to be told.

[Neo Goblin]

eeeeh that sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Outsiders are supposed to be;

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what I said.

the idea that that the Outsiders are inherently Batman related characters is actually pretty laughable.

Perhaps. I suppose it's a good thing I never said that. What I said is that the concept of The Outsiders (the idea, not the characters) is inherently Batman related. Very strongly so.

the reason the team was formed was because Batman

This is true.

[Dr. Skeleton]

More or less even though I don't think it was ever DC's intention, but the Outsiders were always a dime store Justice League. It's a team anybody can join whenever a member leaves his/her previous team or was never in a team.

[SecretWarrior]

The Outsiders are supposed to be Seal Team 6 or some other special forces team, bringing down regimes or doing other borderline ethical, global vigilantism from the shadows. What Batman is to Gotham, they're supposed to be for the world.

Problem is that the Suicide Squad is often better positioned for those stories since everything about that concept is an ethical landmine.

Also, the Outsiders are just treated as the supporting act to a member of the Bat family. They're often treated like the prototype to Red Hood and the Outlaws.

The Defenders feels like a less cerebral, more action oriented version of Marvel's Illuminati.

The idea of a few members consistently appearing across iterations is true for all superhero teams besides the F4, who are more static by nature of being a literal family.

[j9ac9k]

I think there's a certain B-level heroes vibe that might be similar, but I don't see any deeper, or direct correlation. Mostly with the Nighthawk/Valkyrie era Defenders - post Big 4 and before they became the Netflix squad. A team-up between those two teams certainly would have been interesting.

[DrNewGod]

Absent a role as Batman's Backup, The Outsiders have always struggled to find a raison d'être. Yes, their original title did spend some time on the question of who Katana and Halo were, but that wasn't the "why" of the team. Batman's needs motivated the original group, and (for a time) Geo-Force's motivated it after Batman left.

That is one thing The Outsiders do have in common with the classic Defenders. As I think about it, a Batmanless-Outsiders might work best if they were less a team, and more a cooperative, more similar to the early JSA. If the members are characterized mainly as independent operators - especially, street-level characters - who cooperate as needed, the "why" begins to make more sense. You need an initial arc to explain them coming together, but then the title might work more like an anthology book, or crossover book.

[king81992]

The Outsiders are supposed to be Seal Team 6 or some other special forces team, bringing down regimes or doing other borderline ethical, global vigilantism from the shadows. What Batman is to Gotham, they're supposed to be for the world.

Problem is that the Suicide Squad is often better positioned for those stories since everything about that concept is an ethical landmine.

Also, the Outsiders are just treated as the supporting act to a member of the Bat family. They're often treated like the prototype to Red Hood and the Outlaws.

The Defenders feels like a less cerebral, more action oriented version of Marvel's Illuminati.

The idea of a few members consistently appearing across iterations is true for all superhero teams besides the F4, who are more static by nature of being a literal family.

Suicide Squad is basically an incompetent version of the Outsiders, since both teams are supposed to handle shady business that other heroes are unable/unwilling to touch.

[king81992]

Absent a role as Batman's Backup, The Outsiders have always struggled to find a raison d'être. Yes, their original title did spend some time on the question of who Katana and Halo were, but that wasn't the "why" of the team. Batman's needs motivated the original group, and (for a time) Geo-Force's motivated it after Batman left.

That is one thing The Outsiders do have in common with the classic Defenders. As I think about it, a Batmanless-Outsiders might work best if they were less a team, and more a cooperative, more similar to the early JSA. If the members are characterized mainly as independent operators - especially, street-level characters - who cooperate as needed, the "why" begins to make more sense. You need an initial arc to explain them coming together, but then the title might work more like an anthology book, or crossover book.

An Outsiders have options without Batman:

1. Return to their original roots, a team that handles stuff the other heroes can't or won't touch.

2. Infinity Inc route, focus on their younger relatives and the allies. You either keep the original mission or give them a new direction.

3. Seven Soldiers of Victory route, Outsiders and adjacent characters coming together for different missions.

[SecretWarrior]

Suicide Squad is basically an incompetent version of the Outsiders, since both teams are supposed to handle shady business that other heroes are unable/unwilling to touch.

I don't think they're incompetent. They just don't have plot armor, which is supposed to show that their missions are more dangerous. Expendability is one of the reasons the government uses them, along with unique combat capabilities and plausible deniability.

Storytelling-wise, you get the added tension that the Squad can do outright villainous activity for the U.S. government, like propping up dictators and tyrants to serve geopolitical policies. They can also be used to arm and train extremists. . . Very easy potential commentary on the U.S. governmnt.

[king81992]

I don't think they're incompetent. They just don't have plot armor, which is supposed to show that their missions are more dangerous. Expendability is one of the reasons the government uses them, along with unique combat capabilities and plausible deniability.

Storytelling-wise, you get the added tension that the Squad can do outright villainous activity for the U.S. government, like propping up dictators and tyrants to serve geopolitical policies. They can also be used to arm and train extremists. . . Very easy potential commentary on the U.S. governmnt.

Suicide Squad is more or less Amanda Waller's private army now anyways, they're doing things that benefit her and not the US government these days.

[DrNewGod]

An Outsiders have options without Batman:

1. Return to their original roots, a team that handles stuff the other heroes can't or won't touch.

Batman's backup was "their original roots," and Dirty Work crew means they're basically Suicide Squad clones.

2. Infinity Inc route, focus on their younger relatives and the allies. You either keep the original mission or give them a new direction.

Which means they have no identity distinct from Inf.Inc, TT or JSA.

3. Seven Soldiers of Victory route, Outsiders and adjacent characters coming together for different missions.

Which is pretty much what I proposed.

[Nomads1]

The original Outsiders really were created to be Batman's personal super-team. Bruce, at the hight of hi obssession back then, really wanted a team that he could point at a target he wanted and set loose. It shows at the end of the BATO run, when knowing of the dreadful going ons in Markovia, he prefers to keep the team in the dark untill he's done with them. Pretty cold of Bats.
However, my favorite phase of the Outsiders is in the Barr / Pelletier run, when they were truly Outsiders in every meaning of the word, always on the run, most of the time, from even themselves, in a way. I really liked that.

Peace

[Robotman]

The original concept for the Outsiders was that they were the more proactive superhero team. They actually went out and found the bad guys before they could strike. Or at least that’s what Batman claimed they were.

I don’t think the Defenders had that M.O.

[DrNewGod]

The original Outsiders really were created to be Batman's personal super-team. Bruce, at the hight of hi obssession back then, really wanted a team that he could point at a target he wanted and set loose. It shows at the end of the BATO run, when knowing of the dreadful going ons in Markovia, he prefers to keep the team in the dark untill he's done with them. Pretty cold of Bats.
However, my favorite phase of the Outsiders is in the Barr / Pelletier run, when they were truly Outsiders in every meaning of the word, always on the run, most of the time, from even themselves, in a way. I really liked that.

Peace

So one thing that maybe works is making them Wild Dog caliber vigilantes, as ready to burn an exploitative landlord to the ground as a drug lord, and not all that concerned with being polite about it, or how the cops might feel. But then, you've to account for how The JL can't/won't bring them in, without making any of their key players look like sellouts, or idiots. Kind of suggests maybe Green Arrow has to be an Outsider.