Krillin and Saitama. How do they stack up?

[Aura Blaize]

So the idea for this came from boredly watching TikTok. You know how it goes. Anime fanboys tend to go crazy on there. Someone mentioned that even Krillin was SSJ3 level by ToP and could take Saitama.

That got me thinking. Could he? I don't think that he's SSJ3 level, but...what's his best feat? We know in Dragon Ball, he and Roshi had an entire exchange faster than the eye could see and Roshi could bust a moon relatively easily.

But then you have Saitama getting punched to the moon, shrugging it off and then jumping back. And this is the feat that I keep coming back to because it's the only feat that actually affects him so to speak. It's not a "Oh he just stood there and took it" thing. It knocked him clear to the moon. Granted it didn't do DAMAGE, but it's still a start.

But Krillin was essentially able to bust a moon back in the saiyan saga and showed insane speed clear back in Dragon ball. He's only grown since then and by the ToP he's hands down the strongest human.

But for all his power, I still cannot see him either taking a hit that sends him to the moon or generating a hit that does the same. And yet, by ToP and compared to the other DB characters, shouldn't his speed and power be insane?

But this is rumbles and we go by feats so.......where do we put these two? It's possible I'm over-analyzing this but I suppose I want to get some expert opinions.

[big_adventure]

Well, here's where we get into feats versus scaling. Krillin most definitely doesn't have any feats for knocking someone to the moon in a handful of seconds. He also generally fails to actually hurt the beings who do have that kind of strength. Yet by scaling, he probably should be capable of this.

This fight, however, presents him some further issues: even with scaling, he's generally stuck watching the "arguably lightspeed reaction" crowd and commenting on how he can't perceive their movements. Saitama, however, is pretty clearly in the "high fraction of lightspeed" reaction zone, being stupidly faster than Flashy Flash to the point where Flashy's absolute best is not even enough for Saitama to feel even slightly threatened by it. So Saitama should have a pretty large speed advantage. Saitama also wasn't even slightly hurt by the shot that knocked him to the moon at nearly the speed of light. So even if scaling gives Krillin that level of power, it won't even scratch Saitama's paint.

[Nik Hasta]

I have a rule about trying not to take part in Dragonball threads any more but I will just point this out.

Saitama, however, is pretty clearly in the "high fraction of lightspeed" reaction zone, being stupidly faster than Flashy Flash to the point where Flashy's absolute best is not even enough for Saitama to feel even slightly threatened by it.

This is not entirely accurate.

In the original webcomic, Saitama never really comments on Flashy's top speed directly. We can argue that given how Garou dealt with Flashy versus how he failed to deal with Saitama suggests a significant gap but it's hard to say exactly what that gap would be (parrying everything easily vs. parrying a lot of stuff and eventually being overwhelmed)

In the redrawn manga, Flashy has not shown his absolute best to Saitama at time of writing and, when explicitly not going 100%, Saitama commented that Flashy was "pretty fast,"

When I did the speed algorithm for OPM generally, I concluded that Flashy is in the "small but significant fraction of lightspeed," I figure he's single digits, likely 1-2% if you were to press me for an exact number.

Obviously, there's latitude to this depending on how the redrawn manga handles things with Garou and Saitama going forward but I would be very leery about saying things like "high fraction of lightspeed," without further evidence coming from the redrawn manga. We can say Saitama is "faster than Flashy," and we can say "some significant fraction of lightspeed," but it's hard to say more than that without more feats.

[big_adventure]

I have a rule about trying not to take part in Dragonball threads any more but I will just point this out.



This is not entirely accurate.

In the original webcomic, Saitama never really comments on Flashy's top speed directly. We can argue that given how Garou dealt with Flashy versus how he failed to deal with Saitama suggests a significant gap but it's hard to say exactly what that gap would be (parrying everything easily vs. parrying a lot of stuff and eventually being overwhelmed)

In the redrawn manga, Flashy has not shown his absolute best to Saitama at time of writing and, when explicitly not going 100%, Saitama commented that Flashy was "pretty fast,"

When I did the speed algorithm for OPM generally, I concluded that Flashy is in the "small but significant fraction of lightspeed," I figure he's single digits, likely 1-2% if you were to press me for an exact number.

Obviously, there's latitude to this depending on how the redrawn manga handles things with Garou and Saitama going forward but I would be very leery about saying things like "high fraction of lightspeed," without further evidence coming from the redrawn manga. We can say Saitama is "faster than Flashy," and we can say "some significant fraction of lightspeed," but it's hard to say more than that without more feats.

OK, my aged memory might have had a hiccup there - I recalled Flashy attacking and Saitama casually not being there anymore, then Flashy sweats, panics and whips out a named technique because he's scared Saitama is faster than he is. Which Saitama still stops with contemptuous ease. I read his "pretty fast" as Saitama doing his typical "talking people up" thing. That's why I pegged him as sooo far beyond Flashy. I was of course also considering your excellently-made OPM speed algo.

[Cody]

Tbh, I don't see Saitama beating Krillin. Nothing really to suggest a Solar Flare/Destructo disk wouldn't work as it typically works even on those stronger than him(and I do not see Saitama being as durable as 2nd form Frieza at this time).

All in all Krillin is beyond what he was back in Namek, and above everything that was a part of the Saiyan saga(which is well beyond the level Boros and Garou work on through either destructive power or otherwise). Add Krillins superior skill and experience and I don't really see Saitama winning this with what he has shown thus far.

[Jcogginsa]

As far as Scaling Goes, I don't think Krillin's ever been considered stronger than Base Goku. and per Battle of Gods, Base goku is below pre-revival Frieza's strength. Which would therefore mean that Krillin is too

[The Drunkard Kid]

As far as Scaling Goes, I don't think Krillin's ever been considered stronger than Base Goku. and per Battle of Gods, Base goku is below pre-revival Frieza's strength. Which would therefore mean that Krillin is too

Honestly, that doesn't really fit with how Base Vegeta was pretty confident that he wouldn't even need to go SSJ in order to win a tournament that had Piccolo and #18 in it, especially considering the massive boost that base Goku after the first time he gained Super Saiyajin God. And for what its worth, Kuririn/Tenshinhan/Yamcha showing up to face the Androids prior to the revelation that there were more than 2 implies that he thought that he was at least strong enough to be worth a spit against the likes of Frieza or Cold, since I think that was the lower strength limit they were told to reach if they were going to bother showing up for that fight (and the fact that Chiaotzu didn't get that strong was why Tenshinhan forbade him from coming with him at the time).

That said, there's no real reason why Kuririn should ever be stronger than a base Goku who has been training for at least as long as he himself has been. I think that the best objective strength feat I can think of for Kuririn is him being able to jump from hilltop to hilltop while hiding his ki so that Frieza and his goons wouldn't be able to track him with sensors, and in addition to that telling us absolutely nothing about how strong he would have been when using his (relatively) massive ki to boost his stats, he explicitly got at least one massive power up since then.

[Hiromi]

really? OP says stack up in a thread with Krillin and no one makes a short joke? My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.

[bruceleegreyhulk]

Well, I think that light would reflect perfectly off both their heads since they're both bald.

[Cody]

really? OP says stack up in a thread with Krillin and no one makes a short joke? My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.

Heightist!

[bruceleegreyhulk]

Krillen might be short but he and Saitama are still in the same club. The baldy mc baldy club

[The Drunkard Kid]

Krillen might be short but he and Saitama are still in the same club. The baldy mc baldy club

Nah, Kuririn is bald by choice while Saitama's hair fell out against his will.

[Aura Blaize]

All in all Krillin is beyond what he was back in Namek, and above everything that was a part of the Saiyan saga(which is well beyond the level Boros and Garou work on through either destructive power or otherwise). Add Krillins superior skill and experience and I don't really see Saitama winning this with what he has shown thus far.

See, I also feel that TOP Krillin should be insanely strong. The problem is that "to the moon" feat has yet to be replicated in DBZ. No one has ever knocked their opponent off planet. Even with a huge disparity like Cell vs Mr Satan, Cell only knocked him into a mountainside. Now granted, it could be because DB is more of a energy beam type of universe and said feat is a physical one. But then there's the durability aspect. Krillin hasn't tanked that kind of hit at all. And we know that he's not durable to survive in space. Plus we know he couldn't jump from the moon back to earth. Though he could realistically shoot a kamehameha from the earth and blow up the entire moon.

He should be at a power and durability level far above those displayed by Boros. The problem is that there's nothing that really shows that.

really? OP says stack up in a thread with Krillin and no one makes a short joke? My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.

I'm actually kicking myself repeatedly for not making that joke myself.

[Cody]

See, I also feel that TOP Krillin should be insanely strong. The problem is that "to the moon" feat has yet to be replicated in DBZ. No one has ever knocked their opponent off planet. Even with a huge disparity like Cell vs Mr Satan, Cell only knocked him into a mountainside. Now granted, it could be because DB is more of a energy beam type of universe and said feat is a physical one. But then there's the durability aspect. Krillin hasn't tanked that kind of hit at all. And we know that he's not durable to survive in space. Plus we know he couldn't jump from the moon back to earth. Though he could realistically shoot a kamehameha from the earth and blow up the entire moon.

He should be at a power and durability level far above those displayed by Boros. The problem is that there's nothing that really shows that.




I'm actually kicking myself repeatedly for not making that joke myself.

Problem is, yes there is. Their physical strikes, to a point, scale with their non-chargeable ki blasts. Krillin ended up getting to a point well beyond the level of Nappa and demonstrated it while fighting Frieza(whose tail he could cut off, meaning he should be more than able to cut Saitamas head right off based off what he has shown thus far).

Idc about his power during ToP because it doesn't really matter, we don't know if he is even back at his peak(Cell saga) or not outside of creating a new technique. What matters is what he, and those comparable to him, has shown up to that point.

I'm not sure how great a feat people are trying to make the moon kicking feat out to be, but it pales in destructive capacity compared to Boros' planet surface erasing attack. One would need to make a claim of energy resistance(which has zero evidence to support it outside an attempt to downplay, not that I am accusing anyone here of claiming this of course) in order to say that one could take that and not the other.

Could Krillin kick someone to the moon? No, none of them could because that isn't how their physical attacks work, and never has been. They have always been more contained to a single point or area, with the sole exception of the fights between Goku and Beerus, or the fight between Gogeta and Broly. And the former showed why when Goku absorbed the impacts he and Beerus were dishing out into his body.

These are supposed to be martial artists, not brawling bricks. Their physical attacks aren't going to create as much devastating effects around them like the latter sometimes do.

It's like in Saint Seiya who physically attack at an atomic scale, thus rarely cause surrounding damage despite much weaker Saints having destroyed mountains, and stronger ones casually juggling giants with their attacks. Yet they rarely ever wo much as create a shockwave from the impact of their attacks because that isn't how their abilities work.

[The Drunkard Kid]

For what is worth, one hindrance for m99n-punching Dragon Ball characters is that anyone worth punching to the moon is probably A) able to fly, B) able to rocket propel themselves back with ki-blasts, and C) fast enough reflex-wise that being knocked to the moon at punch-speeds should take as long from their perspective as it would take for a normal person to reach the moon at normal-person-punch speeds (though that would also have been true about Saitama as well, but he was barely even paying attention until after he got hit to the moon so it's arguable that he wasn't even actively using his superspeed to any significant degree up to that point; for a similar DBZ feat, there's Vegeta being able to drag himself away from Goku's Kamehameha X4 even though it's previously been shown that the Kamehameha and other ki-blasts can reach the moon at speeds comparable to Boros' moon punch).

Also, while they don't say it outright, it looked like Frieza might have been at risk of being chucked into space (at least) by SSJ Goku at one point, since he needed to fire off a ki-blasts to stop his upward trajectory.