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  1. #76
    Fantastic Member SonOfBaldwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas 35 View Post
    I have a doubt, if they are trans, if they were born with male bodies before, now their souls and bodies being reincarnation, does this mean that they leave The Well of Souls with female bodies?
    I imagine that--since woman is not (or, at least, shouldn't be) defined by genitalia--whatever the physical state of their bodies before reincarnation is the condition of their bodies after reincarnation. Which means, some trans Amazons will have penises and some trans Amazons will have vaginas. Or some may be intersex and have both.

    I make this deduction because trans men--whether they have vaginas or penises or whatever else--will not be reincarnated on Themyscira. Meaning that what's pertinent is not the physical state of the body but the gender/identity state of the body, heart, mind, and spirit.
    Last edited by SonOfBaldwin; 10-21-2021 at 11:29 AM.
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  2. #77
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfBaldwin View Post
    I imagine that--since woman is not (or, at least, shouldn't be) defined by genitalia--whatever the physical state of their bodies before reincarnation is the condition of their bodies after reincarnation. Which means, some trans Amazons will have penises and some trans Amazons will have vaginas. Or some may be intersex and have both.

    I make this deduction because trans men--whether they have vaginas or penises or whatever else--will not be reincarnated on Themyscira. Meaning that what's pertinent is not the physical state of the body but the gender/identity state of the body, heart, mind, and spirit.
    I'm not sure that's how most Transgenger people would see it. Transgender people explain themselves as feeling they were born into the wrong body, that their soul/spirit/mind is one gender, while their body is other. That's why SRS exists, as a way to correct the mistake and make their bodies match the gender they feel they should have been born as. If you asked most Transwomen if they died and were to be reincarnated and gave them a choice between a fully biologically female body or a direct recreation of their current body, I think most would choose the former over the later.

    Though I doubt we'll get any kind of confirmation, as I'm not expecting any nude scenes, and I imagine any attempt to address this on panel would be awkward. So I assume it'll remain up to how one personally interprets the mechanics of the Well of Souls magical rebirth.

  4. #79
    Fantastic Member Sebastianne's Avatar
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    I would like to think that they reincarnate as they look and feel herself, if the process of dying in that way is unfair and painful, reincarnation should be at least in spirit, mind and body a state of happiness.

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    Oh Lynda, you are all that is right!
    Last edited by Sebastianne; 10-21-2021 at 02:18 PM.

  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastianne View Post
    I would like to think that they reincarnate as they look and feel herself, if the process of dying in that way is unfair and painful, reincarnation should be at least in spirit, mind and body a state of happiness.



    Oh Lynda, you are all that is right!
    Yes!

    I wished we got to see Linda as Asteria or another Amazon on the island so that we could see her in some Wonder Action (even though it isn't her movie). I bet she still looks Wonderific!
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  6. #81
    Fantastic Member SonOfBaldwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemisfanboy View Post
    I'm not sure that's how most Transgenger people would see it. Transgender people explain themselves as feeling they were born into the wrong body, that their soul/spirit/mind is one gender, while their body is other. That's why SRS exists, as a way to correct the mistake and make their bodies match the gender they feel they should have been born as. If you asked most Transwomen if they died and were to be reincarnated and gave them a choice between a fully biologically female body or a direct recreation of their current body, I think most would choose the former over the later.

    Though I doubt we'll get any kind of confirmation, as I'm not expecting any nude scenes, and I imagine any attempt to address this on panel would be awkward. So I assume it'll remain up to how one personally interprets the mechanics of the Well of Souls magical rebirth.
    Some transgender people might feel that way. And some transgender people might not. Trans people are not a monolith and body dysmorphia is not universal or experienced in exactly the same way for every single trans person. Some transgender people are fine with their genitalia as it is. Some prefer modification.

    You know the Black trans woman personality TS Madison? She talks openly about the fact that she prefers to keep her penis and that's what makes her feel whole and comfortable. Trying to say that having a vagina is what makes a trans woman "more of a real woman" is biological essentialism, binary thinking, very problematic, and rooted in anti-transness.

    Trans women are women--irrespective of their genitalia. Full stop.
    Last edited by SonOfBaldwin; 10-21-2021 at 06:28 PM.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfBaldwin View Post
    Some transgender people might feel that way. And some transgender people might not. Trans people are not a monolith and body dysmorphia is not universal. Some transgender people are fine with their genitalia as it is. Some prefer modification.

    You know the Black trans woman personality TS Madison? She talks openly about the fact that she prefers to keep her penis and that's what makes her feel whole and comfortable. Trying to say that having a vagina is what makes a trans woman "more of a real woman" is biological essentialism, binary thinking, very problematic, and rooted in anti-transness.
    Obviously, I'm not intending to try to speak for everyone. Hence my usage of the words like "think" and "most". Obviously not everybody is the same, and there are a lot of different ways people deal with Gender dysphoria in real life. You're right that not everybody feels comfortable with going all the way with the surgery, as it is obviously quite a big procedure. I don't mean to say they're any less of a "real woman" because they don't want to get the surgery.

    But we're discussing the mechanics of Well of souls reincarnation process. I was pointing out why it would make sense for them to reborn in the kind of body that matches their soul, rather than the one they were previously stuck with that they didn't feel matched their soul.

    I'd say Sebastianne provided what is probably the best answer that could be given regards to this process. That they're reborn as into a body that's ideal for them and they're happy comfortable with, and you can interpret this however you want. I really have no interest in an in depth debate with you about what Bia's genitals are like or other questions about her status, and I doubt DC wants to address them either. These are very messy subjects to talk about. So maybe we should drop this conversation and and just leave the details of her body to our own imaginations.
    Last edited by Artemisfanboy; 10-21-2021 at 06:34 PM.

  8. #83
    Fantastic Member SonOfBaldwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemisfanboy View Post
    Obviously, I'm not intending to try to speak for everyone. Hence my usage of the words like "think" and "most". Obviously not everybody is the same, and there are a lot of different ways people deal with Gender dysphoria in real life. You're right that not everybody feels comfortable with going all the way with the surgery, as it is obviously quite a big procedure. I don't mean to say they're any less of a "real woman" because they don't want to get the surgery.

    But we're discussing the mechanics of Well of souls reincarnation process. I was pointing out why it would make sense for them to reborn in the kind of body that matches their soul, rather than the one they were previously stuck with that they didn't feel matched their soul.

    I'd say Sebastianne provided what is probably the best answer that could be given regards to this process. That they're reborn as into a body that's ideal for them and they're happy comfortable with, and you can interpret this however you want. I really have no interest in an in depth debate with you about what Bia's genitals are like or other questions about her status, and I doubt DC wants to address them either. These are very messy subjects to talk about. So maybe we should drop this conversation and and just leave the details of her body to our own imaginations.
    But what if they felt that the body they were in *does* match their soul AND they are still women however that body appears?

    Why can't it be both/and rather than either/or?
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  9. #84
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    If there have always been trans Amazons with functional penises on Themyscira (not all, presumably some), wouldn't we have seen some children born by traditional means...?
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfBaldwin View Post
    But what if they felt that the body they were in *does* match their soul AND they are still women however that body appears?

    Why can't it be both/and rather than either/or?
    I don't work for DC, and all we have is few panels with the character where she says she feels like her soul has desired becoming an amazon for a long time, and the tweet. So we have basically no information to analyze. If you want more details about how a body is formed from the well of souls or other questions about Bia's body, I suggest you try asking Vita or other writers or editors at the Wonder Woman office for details. Because I'm hardly equipped to have this kind of debate, nor am I really interested in having it. I have better things to do than obsess about Bia's genitals.

  11. #86
    Fantastic Member SonOfBaldwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemisfanboy View Post
    I don't work for DC, and all we have is few panels with the character where she says she feels like her soul has desired becoming an amazon for a long time, and the tweet. So we have basically no information to analyze. If you want more details about how a body is formed from the well of souls or other questions about Bia's body, I suggest you try asking Vita or other writers or editors at the Wonder Woman office for details. Because I'm hardly equipped to have this kind of debate, nor am I really interested in having it. I have better things to do than obsess about Bia's genitals.
    The assumption that an Amazon woman has to meet a cisgender binary ideal is a problem. Insisting that in order to be on Themyscira, a trans woman's body have to be transformed into a cisgender woman's body is a problem. In a progressive system, womanhood is not determined by genitals. Thousands of Indigenous cultures understood this before European colonialism and Abrahamic colonialism violently tore these beliefs apart.

    I don't need any further details about Amazon anatomy because Steph and Vita are friends of mine. Thanks, though.
    Last edited by SonOfBaldwin; 10-22-2021 at 06:02 AM.
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  12. #87
    Fantastic Member SonOfBaldwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJNeal View Post
    If there have always been trans Amazons with functional penises on Themyscira (not all, presumably some), wouldn't we have seen some children born by traditional means...?
    I find this disingenuous given that there have never been trans Amazons on the island until this very first issue of Nubia and it is now retroactive continuity. So it is yet to be explored whether biological procreation is possible between Amazons on Themyscira or whether procreation can only occur through mystical means and godlike interventions.

    I have to say that I'm rather stunned by people who purport to be fans of Wonder Woman--who represents acceptance and inclusion--having such a difficult time with trans women and their anatomy. Stunned, but not surprised.

    I think I should end it here on the subject by wishing and hoping from more understanding, especially for our trans siblings who are endure so much real-world discrimination, hatred, and violence.
    Last edited by SonOfBaldwin; 10-22-2021 at 06:03 AM.
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  13. #88
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Haven't read it, so that one panel gives me the impression that Bia feels that finally she has the right body after spending her past life in the wrong one.

  14. #89
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfBaldwin View Post
    I find this disingenuous given that there have never been trans Amazons on the island until this very first issue of Nubia and it is now retroactive continuity. So it is yet to be explored whether biological procreation is possible between Amazons on Themyscira or whether procreation can only occur through mystical means and godlike interventions.

    I have to say that I'm rather stunned by people who purport to be fans of Wonder Woman--who represents acceptance and inclusion--having such a difficult time with trans women and their anatomy. Stunned, but not surprised.

    I think I should end it here on the subject by wishing and hoping from more understanding, especially for our trans siblings who are endure so much real-world discrimination, hatred, and violence.
    My question was genuine. Apologies if it read sarcastic or cynical, that was not my intent.

    I guess I'll overshare in hopes of not being perceived as bigoted or exclusionary, so here goes. I have two close trans women friends, both of whom still have functioning penises, and both of whom use them for more than urinating. That was honestly the basis of my question. I suppose I could ask them their take on this news, but as neither are comic readers I'd probably just get blank stares.
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  15. #90
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Haven't read it, so that one panel gives me the impression that Bia feels that finally she has the right body after spending her past life in the wrong one.
    That was my take as well.

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