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  1. #1
    Ultimate Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Default Are The Outsiders DC’s version of The Defenders

    Not in a purposeful-one for one swap-exact same mission statement kind of way but in how they’ve evolved over time.

    Someone pointed out at a different site I was visiting how both teams are where B-listers go to hang out, and A-listers occasionally visit.
    Both teams have been reimagined in wildly different ways.
    Each team has certain “core” members that make it to most Iterations of the team, and have developed in-continuity relationships.

    Never really thought about it before but, Black Lightning, Katana, Geo Force all have that vibe, same as Nighthawk, Valkyrie, and Hellcat.

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Love the Defenders. Love the Outsiders. But I have to say, I don't see it. Sorry.

    Peace

  3. #3
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    No. The Defenders were way more outside than The Outsiders ever presumed to be.

    Additionally, The Outsiders were more typical costumed adventurer superhero characters than The (four core) Defenders, who were massively powerful people from circumstances that happened to make them dress funny.

  4. #4

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    Interesting theory, but there is no link, a couple of quick points.

    1) Batman is really the only A lister on the team, and he's usually brought in (like he is on many titles) to help sell a series.

    2) There hasn't been a consistent core of the original members showing up in every outsiders series. Black Lightning, and Geo Force for example have been left out of many runs in the past, despite a more recent return to original members.

    As par example, one of the most successful Outsiders run, was essentially a Teen Titans book staring Arsenal and Nightwing

    (It was pretty much Outsiders in name only) though they did bring in Katana and Metamorphosis who have probably been the most consistent members of the team.

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies!
    As a fan of both teams, I was interested in the idea and wanted to see how ppl here would interpret things.

    Also, this…
    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    …The Defenders were way more outside than The Outsiders ever presumed to be.
    …is such a great observation!

  6. #6
    Incredible Member edpower's Avatar
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    I in an interview Grant Morrison explaining how each superhero team has a theme. JLA is the pantheon of the gods. Avengers is a varsity team. X-Men is a school. Doom Patrol is a group therapy group. Etc.

    To me The Outsiders worked bestvwhen they first started and they worked with Batman, each while he helped them and they helped one another with a personal issue. Once all their issues were solved, the series stagnated.

    So in my mind, The Outsiders work best as a superhero support group.

    That said, I'm not quite sure how the explain what the Defenders are an example of. It doesn't seem like a support group though.
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  7. #7
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    I see the Outsiders as closer to Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends. Basically, Batman's personal superhero group usually comprised of otherwise non-Bat related characters.

  8. #8
    Ultimate Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edpower View Post
    I in an interview Grant Morrison explaining how each superhero team has a theme. JLA is the pantheon of the gods. Avengers is a varsity team. X-Men is a school. Doom Patrol is a group therapy group. Etc.

    To me The Outsiders worked bestvwhen they first started and they worked with Batman, each while he helped them and they helped one another with a personal issue. Once all their issues were solved, the series stagnated.

    So in my mind, The Outsiders work best as a superhero support group.

    That said, I'm not quite sure how the explain what the Defenders are an example of. It doesn't seem like a support group though.
    ^^^Hey, long time no see!

    Thanks for that breakdown. The Defenders are a hard nut to crack, I agree. The original four were big time loners. Hard to believe there was a time when Dr. Strange wasn’t an Avenger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neo Goblin View Post
    I see the Outsiders as closer to Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends. Basically, Batman's personal superhero group usually comprised of otherwise non-Bat related characters.
    ^^^A personal super team. That’s pretty cool.
    Last edited by Riv86672; 07-16-2021 at 04:54 PM.

  9. #9
    Fantastic Member atomicskull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo Goblin View Post
    I see the Outsiders as closer to Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends. Basically, Batman's personal superhero group usually comprised of otherwise non-Bat related characters.
    Ugh! I don't like the idea of "Batman and his minions* it just implies that Black Lightning, Katana, etc are inferior to him. It implies that they need him more than he needs them. The Outsiders should stand on their own.

    And as for the question. I wouldn't mind it. I like the idea of The Outsiders being a street level based team, a sort of network among street level heroes.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicskull View Post
    Ugh! I don't like the idea of "Batman and his minions* it just implies that Black Lightning, Katana, etc are inferior to him. It implies that they need him more than he needs them. The Outsiders should stand on their own.

    And as for the question. I wouldn't mind it. I like the idea of The Outsiders being a street level based team, a sort of network among street level heroes.
    The perception of Outsiders as Batman's minions actually hurt the team and their characters.

    We needs new Outsiders roster with characters tied to the originals and no connection to Batman.

  11. #11
    Fantastic Member atomicskull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    The perception of Outsiders as Batman's minions actually hurt the team and their characters.

    We needs new Outsiders roster with characters tied to the originals and no connection to Batman.
    It hurt the team b/c that's what DC reduces them as sadly. And I agree.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    The perception of Outsiders as Batman's minions actually hurt the team and their characters.

    We needs new Outsiders roster with characters tied to the originals and no connection to Batman.
    My opinion is if that would be the plan, you should not do The Outsiders, then. Like, if the connection to Batman is perceived as bad, then do something else. Because, while you CAN sever the connection with Batman, The Outsiders is always going to carry around that lineage and history. Especially when it's so easy and tempting to use Batman or Batman related things (which the Outsiders inherently is) in the stories in an effort to gain interest.

  13. #13
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    No 10 char
    The J-man

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo Goblin View Post
    My opinion is if that would be the plan, you should not do The Outsiders, then. Like, if the connection to Batman is perceived as bad, then do something else. Because, while you CAN sever the connection with Batman, The Outsiders is always going to carry around that lineage and history. Especially when it's so easy and tempting to use Batman or Batman related things (which the Outsiders inherently is) in the stories in an effort to gain interest.
    Using Batman as a crutch is a bad idea and part of the problem with current DC. The most recent Outsiders run devolved into a proxy war with Ras and had Batman giving Black Lightning a 'power up' to use abilities he had in the past. Either the writer didn't know about BL's powerset or wanted to prop up Batman.

    An Outsiders roster using characters tied to the original cast with no/minimal connection to Batman would give the franchise and the characters involved a much needed boost, similar to how NTT elevated the Teen Titans franchise(at fist) in the 1980s.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Using Batman as a crutch is a bad idea and part of the problem with current DC. The most recent Outsiders run devolved into a proxy war with Ras and had Batman giving Black Lightning a 'power up' to use abilities he had in the past. Either the writer didn't know about BL's powerset or wanted to prop up Batman.

    An Outsiders roster using characters tied to the original cast with no/minimal connection to Batman would give the franchise and the characters involved a much needed boost, similar to how NTT elevated the Teen Titans franchise(at fist) in the 1980s.
    Not using Batman would quite possibly give the franchise whatever the opposite of a boost is, considering how none of the other characters are nearly as popular as him, and don't have a lot going on to fall back on. The logic behind using Batman seems pretty sound to me.

    The New Teen Titans still had Robin, Wonder Girl, and Kid Flash, so there were definitely strong elements of what made the original Teen Titans idea recognizable. The thing with the Outsiders is that the original Outsiders idea is that, well...it's Batman's team.

    You don't have to have an Outsiders with Batman, but if we're going to draw a similarity with a Marvel idea, it seems closer to Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends than any other thing I can think of off the top of my head. That is, there is a major hero who has his own personal superhero group, which is mainly comprised of characters that otherwise seem to have little to do with him.

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