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  1. #61
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    Morrison finished it during New 52. Asides of some minor changes like Dick being back as Nightwing it didn't look like Morrison had to change much.
    True, but in a interview he said he still had alot he wanted to write with Batman & Robin ie Dick & Damian.

    Because of the new 52 Bruce had to return as the one and only Batman, so everything was cut short

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    There are certainly some sweeping changes and shifts in tone, but until I see superheroes get their civilian IDs and supporting casts back as well as a shift away from constantly crossing over with other IP instead of telling stories with the characters organic to that universe (so no more having Clark call Bruce as his resident smart friend when John Henry Irons is also on speed dial) then the real DCU isn't back. The destruction and further homogenizing of each specific slice of the DCU has made the entire thing far more shallow as a result.
    Well, he's known Bruce a lot longer...actually, I prefer neither, and for him to go back to actual civilian supporting casts to do that. I really don't like spinoff characters kept as "helpers" for the main ones, as I feel it keeps them subordinate. I mean, if Superman was an actual assistant/helper (not taking over) for John Henry, then maybe. Solo hero teamups are nice occasionally, but they should act as equals. I'm, perhaps, not as big on the "families" as some. Some of these characters have relationships that would make them spend time together, but others just have the same IP source and don't have as reason to.

  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    True, but in a interview he said he still had alot he wanted to write with Batman & Robin ie Dick & Damian.

    Because of the new 52 Bruce had to return as the one and only Batman, so everything was cut short
    So he had more stories to tell with the next gen dynamic duo, but since he can't do that anymore he decided to just end it sooner with Damian's death? I know he plans to have Damian die eventually so it wasn't supposed to end that soon?

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    True, but in a interview he said he still had alot he wanted to write with Batman & Robin ie Dick & Damian.

    Because of the new 52 Bruce had to return as the one and only Batman, so everything was cut short
    Interesting, I wonder how that was supposed to work? We already had other writers working on Batman and Robin title when Morrison was doing Batman Inc before Flashpoint. And Damian was dying in second half of Inc either way so there isn't lots of space available.

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I'd argue that the team books are weaker now, the weakness under Didio was due to incompetence and the current weakness is causes by the lack of notable team booksor incompetence, depending on your POV. You have SS which isn't good, JL which isn't interesting and TTA where the team is shafted to promote Red X/ new characters who so far haven't intrigued me. Infinite Frontier seems to be building up to a team being formed, but its more of a vehicle to shill the next event.
    That's my point. The team books were stronger back when Didio was just EiC and then it got weaker post Nu 52 and by the time he left, they were just floating pieces of wreckage. Still, one of the few gems that came out was the Mr Terrific team book.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    I agree.
    Even if you don't count the classic '80s runs for several of them, you still have the Johns Teen Titans, the DnA Legion, the Winick Outsiders, the Simone Birds of Prey, the Johns JSA...
    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    I agree there were two Dan Didio 'eras' (at least). Not sure if I'd pick 2008 as the cut-off point though.

    I think the period from the end of IC in 2006 up till the New 52 reboot in 2011 (what I guess we often refer to as the Pre-Flashpoint era) was probably the era that laid the heaviest emphasis on respect for the past, for legacy, and for building an all-encompassing DCU. It retained the framework of the Post-Crisis DCU, while bringing back a lot of the Pre-Crisis DCU. It was all about creating a sandbox which had all the toys and not just the ones that were 'allowed' after COIE.

    The New 52 was the end of that.

    I feel the current era is trying to recapture the spirit of that era, by incorporating continuity and concepts from both sides of the Flashpoint divide and making the sandbox bigger than ever. But of course, it has to deal with even bigger continuity nightmares and an arguably more divided fanbase and tougher business environment (not to mention a rather swift internal reorganization).
    Didio was just EIC during the IC era. Johns and Morrison were his henchmen but the latter two seem to think everything has a place in the universe, both post COIE and pre COIE whilst Didio just seems to believe that all of it was dead weight. I think even when he was EIC they were still people doing their own thing which didn't fit with his DCU ideas. Then Levitz left, Didio got promoted publisher and he was able to make broader, more sweeping changes to the DCU which got us to where we are now.


    Quote Originally Posted by FFJamie94 View Post
    Here's my thoughts, but take it with a pinch of salt as I don't follow DC nearly as much as I follow Marvel.
    But I feel the problems with both are nearly identical in nature, and that is simply that editors and publishers stay in the job for a little too long.

    I remember when the New52 was... well new. It seemed like a breath of fresh air for everyone, so much that Marvel found themselves going through a similar publishing phrase known as "Marvel Now".
    I want to state that the only books I read around this time from DC where Batman (and this was coming at the end of Snyder's run) and Batman and Robin Eternal.
    But from what I can gather, New52 started off good, it just suffered from a lack of communication and planning which is the two most important things when running any comic book company.

    From what I can tell, Dan Didio's role seemed very similar to that of Joe Quesda or Axel Alonso, at least as being the face of the company. And much like those two, I feel Dan should have parted ways with DC after New52.

    That's not to say everything he did afterwards was wrong, I remember Rebirth being an exciting new breath of life in DC, and at that point Marvel were losing any goodwill they gained from Marvel Now (which I think in retrospect, we can safely say was a more successful initiative than New52).
    Didio's ideas seemed more to refresh DC every few years rather than just let things play out, it seems like a more obsessive version of Marvel's constant reboots.

    I wouldn't say 2011-2020 was a lost decade, much like other comic publishers, good things and bad things come out at the same time. We had Snyder's Batman, Morrison's Green Lantern and a host of other successful books.
    It saw the launch of Black Label and even through they are now not looked upon greatly, New52 and Rebirth were released to a much larger fanfare than Marvel Now and All New, All Different Marvel.

    As easy as it is to break things down in smaller chunks, good pieces of work still came out this decade for DC, it won't be seen to be as bad the 90's. IF seems like a good place to restart, it's a new direction for the Company and hopefully things start to improve. I on;y want good comics that People enjoy to be released.

    Anyway, like I said, take it with a pinch of salt, I haven't really been following DC for most of the decade, only picking up pieces here and there, I'm not even really interested in any of the events that they've produced during the last few years, only really sticking with the few titles that I really enjoy. But I hope this helps gives some insight to a sort of outsider.
    Not me. I knew it was a bad idea back then. Called it a bad idea and the evidence speaks for itself. The lead they got over Marvel was temporary, thing were going to crash hard.

    I agree that with Marvel at least, Queseda left (or rather was promoted upstairs) and so he wasn't able to damage characters like he and Bendis did with Wanda through HoM and Spider-Man through OMD/BND. What Didio and his ilk continued to do over at DC though especially with Wally, made stuff like OMD over at Marvel look like a minor event book.

  6. #66
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    So he had more stories to tell with the next gen dynamic duo, but since he can't do that anymore he decided to just end it sooner with Damian's death? I know he plans to have Damian die eventually so it wasn't supposed to end that soon?
    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    Interesting, I wonder how that was supposed to work? We already had other writers working on Batman and Robin title when Morrison was doing Batman Inc before Flashpoint. And Damian was dying in second half of Inc either way so there isn't lots of space available.
    Yeah basically he wanted to keep Bruce International and Dick & Damian be in Gotham, that's why with the New 52 Bruce abruptly comes back to Gotham for no real reason.

    Yeah Tomasi did (if I am remembering correctly) the last 4 issues of the original run before taking over the New 52 Batman & Robin, Snyder on Tec and Daniels on Batman (I think).

    Nevertheless, if New 52 didn't happen I can imagine there being Batman & Robin and Batman Inc by Morrison, with Tec & Batman written by someone else.

    Also don't get me started on the Fact that Steph couldn't be used anymore so her storyline was completely excised from volume 2 of Batman Inc

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Yeah Tomasi did (if I am remembering correctly) the last 4 issues of the original run before taking over the New 52 Batman & Robin, Snyder on Tec and Daniels on Batman (I think).
    We had 4 creative teams and 10 issues after Morrison left and before Flashpoint happened. Last Batman and Robin issue was by Hine I think.

    Nevertheless, if New 52 didn't happen I can imagine there being Batman & Robin and Batman Inc by Morrison, with Tec & Batman written by someone else.
    I understand that, but I wonder how that is supposed to work when Heretic kills Damian in sixth or seventh issue? There isn't much time for Morrison to return to Batman and Robin to do another Dick/Damian story before Damian dies unless it was supposed to be very short story.

    Also don't get me started on the Fact that Steph couldn't be used anymore so her storyline was completely excised from volume 2 of Batman Inc
    Good point, forgot about her. We probably would have seen a bit more Spyral stuff in second part of Batman Inc if Steph wasn't dropped.

  8. #68
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    We had 4 creative teams and 10 issues after Morrison left and before Flashpoint happened. Last Batman and Robin issue was by Hine I think.



    I understand that, but I wonder how that is supposed to work when Heretic kills Damian in sixth or seventh issue? There isn't much time for Morrison to return to Batman and Robin to do another Dick/Damian story before Damian dies unless it was supposed to be very short story.



    Good point, forgot about her. We probably would have seen a bit more Spyral stuff in second part of Batman Inc if Steph wasn't dropped.
    Ah, I don't think that would have been done so quickly because we never got an explanation of the 3 Batmans of Gotham, Batman 666, or the new Azrael (I think he was a cop).

    I just think Morrison scrapped it all just to wrap it up

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Never been a big fan of Jon S. Kent.
    And Young Clark was my fave. So... I'm not really digging what's going on the last couple years, really?



    I will say, even though I didn't love Jon as Superboy, I thought Clark was better written during that period than he had been pre-Flashpoint, and it was really a good direction to keep on in. Bendis on the other hand, had a voice I really didn't care for for Clark. Don't know about Johnson.

    Hey quick question: in timelines where Clark's parents are named Eben and Sarah, would Jon Kent II be named Eben as well? I get a kick outta that possibility!
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Ah, I don't think that would have been done so quickly because we never got an explanation of the 3 Batmans of Gotham, Batman 666, or the new Azrael (I think he was a cop).
    They were creations of Dr. Hurt to replace Batman. Morrison's run on the Batman ongoing is pretty much self-contained (since he originally had plans to stick around only until Batman RIP). Hurt's origins are even more interesting since there was an interview by Morrison in Wizard around the time of RIP/Final Crisis where he basically said Hurt was the Devil from his Gothic story that was printed in Legends of the Dark Knight. So the stuff about the Hyper-Adaptor only came much later when he decided to stay on for Batman&Robin and Batman Inc.
    Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 07-20-2021 at 07:40 AM.

  11. #71
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    They were creations of Dr. Hurt to replace Batman. Morrison's run on the Batman is pretty much self-contained (since he originally had plans to stick around only until Batman RIP).
    But wasn't the 3rd Batman of Gotham immortal or some such when he fought Batman 666? If I remember correctly there was a lot of bread crumbs that led no where

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    Hurt's origins are even more interesting since there was an interview by Morrison in Wizard around the time of RIP/Final Crisis where he basically said Hurt was the Devil from his Gothic story that was printed in Legends of the Dark Knight.
    Okay now, that's fascinating.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    But wasn't the 3rd Batman of Gotham immortal or some such when he fought Batman 666? If I remember correctly there was a lot of bread crumbs that led no where
    Not really. Damien in that story (Batman 666) was suppose to be immortal since he claimed he sold his soul to the Devil to keep Gotham safe and iirc he survived Gotham PD filling him up with lead near the end.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Wait, but if Dr. Hurt is the Devil, and he's responsible for both the evil replacement Batmen and for Damian's immortality... then uh, what does that imply? Are there two separate Devils here, or has Dr. Hurt played himself?
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Wait, but if Dr. Hurt is the Devil, and he's responsible for both the evil replacement Batmen and for Damian's immortality... then uh, what does that imply? Are there two separate Devils here, or has Dr. Hurt played himself?
    Hurt's original purpose was to destroy a noble soul. He corrupted 3 cops to become evil Batmen and Damian eventually sells his soul to him. Fact that they end up fighting each other is irrelevant to Hurt, they all sold their souls to him.
    Last edited by HsssH; 07-20-2021 at 08:26 AM.

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