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  1. #76
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    Not really. Damien in that story (Batman 666) was suppose to be immortal since he claimed he sold his soul to the Devil to keep Gotham safe and iirc he survived Gotham PD filling him up with lead near the end.
    Dang, I never picked up on that.

    Thanks! Need to reread!

  2. #77
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Well, he's known Bruce a lot longer...actually, I prefer neither, and for him to go back to actual civilian supporting casts to do that. I really don't like spinoff characters kept as "helpers" for the main ones, as I feel it keeps them subordinate. I mean, if Superman was an actual assistant/helper (not taking over) for John Henry, then maybe. Solo hero teamups are nice occasionally, but they should act as equals. I'm, perhaps, not as big on the "families" as some. Some of these characters have relationships that would make them spend time together, but others just have the same IP source and don't have as reason to.
    You're right, but I speak more to if Clark needs a specialist from his contacts, keep it in-universe. Has Metallo gotten some upgrade Clark can't crack with his Fortress tech? Call John, not Bruce. Does he need to follow up a lead on a crime or a second opinion on his detective work? Lois Lane is right there. Constantly going to other characters with books only serves to shrink the scope of the DCU and help people forget about the rich supporting casts/spin offs we have available just waiting to be used.

    Ultimately, characters like Superboy, Steel and Nightwing are subordinate to Superman or Batman because they're essentially under those umbrellas. If you operate in Gotham, congratulations, you're generally subordinate to Bruce unless you're commuting there for a team venture (Birds of Prey, sometimes the Outsiders). There are exceptions, to be sure (Black Lightning operates out of Metropolis at times but isn't a Super family character) but there's no way to slice Steel and not find a Super core at the center of the character. He absolutely should be Clark's speed dial for "I need to join some big brain energy to mine so we can figure this out."

    I love the World's Finest but it doesn't feel special anymore when it happens so often and almost exclusively in Superman's books or those dedicated to the two of them.

    My biggest problem with Didio beyond the few that get harped on for eternity is this. The universe feels so much smaller as a result of his focus on building up IP iconography without providing any substance to actually retain interest beyond the people on a lunch box. This isn't unique to Didio, but it did persist through his reign-- especially when Levitz was no longer curbing his reach.

    Because I'm hungry, I'll break it down as such: Didio was focused on the hamburger and forgot the fries and drink. You may get a pretty good burger at the premium price they're asking, but without the rest you're left relatively unsatisfied and eventually a lot of customers will probably lose interest and start going elsewhere for a more complete experience. Losing the civilians in character's lives makes them less relatable, less human and overall less interesting because all you're left with is the power construct that resolves the plot. It's just the hamburger patty. As good as it is, eventually it gets boring.

    It's easy to point to manga and say "they do it right" but there's no crossovers so it really always builds around the protagonist. They "get it right" by virtue of not operating in the trickier, murkier and more corporate landscape of "all the toys play with each other." I get it, I really do. Few kids are going to dig in the toy chest to get the Lois Lane action figure when they could pick Superman or Batman, but conversely a Superman without Lois Lane loses one of his biggest draws into many swaths of his fandom (particularly females by their own admission). Obviously, they're still doing stuff with Lois, but the point still stands.

    DC isn't going to feel large and textured with various levels of interest if all they care about is "everything is cosmic leveled big time arena fights." It's popcorn, and you get sick of it after a while.
    Last edited by Robanker; 07-20-2021 at 03:54 PM.

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Ultimately, characters like Superboy, Steel and Nightwing are subordinate to Superman or Batman because they're essentially under those umbrellas. If you operate in Gotham, congratulations, you're generally subordinate to Bruce unless you're commuting there for a team venture (Birds of Prey, sometimes the Outsiders). There are exceptions, to be sure (Black Lightning operates out of Metropolis at times but isn't a Super family character) but there's no way to slice Steel and not find a Super core at the center of the character. He absolutely should be Clark's speed dial for "I need to join some big brain energy to mine so we can figure this out."
    Which is a problem for me and why I staunchly support the Dick and Barbara and Kon not in Gotham or Metropolis. I think they get a lot more respect - in universe and out - when they aren't working with those guys. Because they always end up taking orders or taking lessons or serving the needs of that character's plot.

    but there's no way to slice Steel and not find a Super core at the center of the character. He absolutely should be Clark's speed dial for "I need to join some big brain energy to mine so we can figure this out."
    I don't agree. Superman had a big brain before him, and that worked fine. Let Steel be his own hero instead of Clark's supporting character.

  4. #79
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Which is a problem for me and why I staunchly support the Dick and Barbara and Kon not in Gotham or Metropolis. I think they get a lot more respect - in universe and out - when they aren't working with those guys. Because they always end up taking orders or taking lessons or serving the needs of that character's plot.
    They absolutely should do their own things. Nightwing works best when a city away from Bruce and doing his own thing. That doesn't change that in the pecking order, he's a Bat character. We can drag our heels as much as we want, but them's the breaks. Donna's a Wonder, Dick's a Bat and Kon's a Super. That doesn't mean they need to kiss the ring, so to speak, but it is what it is. If there's a big Bat event, the question of "what's Nightwing doing" is relevant because he's under that umbrella. I'm not saying you have to like it. Hell, most of the time I don't. Daddy Bruce hurts Dick more than he helps most days, but it's the situation at hand and has been for 80 years.

    If they did Batman RIP during NTT, they would have taken Nightwing back to do the event. They'd find someway to bring Dick in even though NTT was kicking all kinds of ass. It's because he's still a supporting character to Bruce's larger myth, like it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I don't agree. Superman had a big brain before him, and that worked fine. Let Steel be his own hero instead of Clark's supporting character.
    I am not saying Steel should firmly be a supporting character, nor that Clark isn't a science hero in his own right, but when forming a brain trust I'd simply prefer he go to Steel rather than Bruce. Second opinions are valuable. It's why I said "join some big brain energy to mine." I hate when Clark's portrayed as just some hick with a good heart. He's more than that.

  5. #80
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I mean, didn't Didio want to reboot the DCU after Final Crisis but was vetoed by Levitz?
    That's the most common belief, yes, although there's no confirmation about it.

    But honestly, I think I would have preferred if a reboot was made while Levitz was still there and Didio was still EiC than what we got with the new52. It would have been a better reboot, with a better status quo, probably.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

    To do spoiler tags, use [ spoil ] at the start of the sentence and [ /spoil ] at the end, without the spaces. You're welcome!

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Well, he's known Bruce a lot longer...actually, I prefer neither, and for him to go back to actual civilian supporting casts to do that. I really don't like spinoff characters kept as "helpers" for the main ones, as I feel it keeps them subordinate.
    They are just as likely to be disrespected outside of the main book. Look at what happened to Dick and Donna in the previous Titans book or what happened to Roy in JL and the Red Hood and the Outlaws.

    Frankly, viewing them as inherently subordinate for being supporting cast members is itself the problem.

  7. #82
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    Morrison finished it during New 52. Asides of some minor changes like Dick being back as Nightwing it didn't look like Morrison had to change much.
    Didn't his Batman Inc use Stephanie Brown in the last issue before New 52? She was erased from continuity, so that story was immediately retconned out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Are the kids (Lian, Jai and Irey, etc.) back, too? I love daddy!Roy. Jai and Irey, I admit, I'd rather age normally, but as long as Wally and Linda have them, that's good.
    Yes they are. Jai and Irey are appearing in The Flash and Irey will be Wally's sidekick as Impulse (which is now a shared mantle, as Bart's still Impulse too). Lian appears in Catwoman of all places - she has amnesia and is calling herself Shoes. Roy has been resurrected as Black Lantern and just learned that she was resurrected too. I guess they'll reunite at some point in the next year.
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  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Didn't his Batman Inc use Stephanie Brown in the last issue before New 52? She was erased from continuity, so that story was immediately retconned out.

    Yes they are. Jai and Irey are appearing in The Flash and Irey will be Wally's sidekick as Impulse (which is now a shared mantle, as Bart's still Impulse too). Lian appears in Catwoman of all places - she has amnesia and is calling herself Shoes. Roy has been resurrected as Black Lantern and just learned that she was resurrected too. I guess they'll reunite at some point in the next year.
    Yeah, I looked up Lian after I read here she was back. I really hate how it sounds. She doesn't even sound like Lian. They took away the relationship with Roy, which was the important part. And made him have failed her by not keeping her a safe and happy kiddo (which is something I really liked). I mean, she, to me, has been so totally written from the sound of it (haven't actually read, like I said) as to not be the same character.

  9. #84
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Didn't his Batman Inc use Stephanie Brown in the last issue before New 52? . . .
    Well, . . . she was suppose to be in Batman, Inc. #9, but #8 was the last issue that made it out before Flashpoint / New52.

    That story finally saw in print in Batman Incorporated: Leviathan Strikes #1 which was released in December 2011 (after the New52 already had begun).

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    This is actually an ironic statement considering that the New 52 erased most of the legacy characters that had taken over the mantles of older, Silver Age characters. Characters like Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, Connor Hawke, Shilo Norman, Kendra Saunders, Conner Kent, etc. It also erased most of the BIPOC and/or LGBTQ characters in the DCU, like Obsidian, Kimiyo Hoshi Dr. Light, Jennifer and Anissa Pierce, Grace Choi, etc.

    Also, Jackson Hyde existed before he New 52. He was introduced in Brightest Day. And I don't think we can credit the New 52 with Jon Kent's existence, since he was famously introduced as the son of Pre-Flashpoint Clark Kent and Lois Lane. New 52 Superman wasn't even with Lois.

    So, yeah, it's kind of ironic that you'd credit the New 52 with these things, when it arguably didn't accomplish any of these things and set DC back in these regards.

    The fact that they have such a devoted fanbase that wants to see them and they're receiving attention in outside media means that they absolutely do have a place of worth in the current comics medium.
    Three rabid fans in an echo chamber do not a devoted fanbase make. It can probably sustain a mini-series or something, but it's not a franchise with the legs for an ongoing - and DC comics should move away from ongoings as much as possible. Give creators who want to play with specific characters a mini to really run wild.

    And yeah, New 52 didn't do everything right, of course. But I still prefer this era to most of what came out of Rebirth save stuff which leaned heavily on New 52 (like Red Hood and the Outlaws) and feel like Infinite Frontier is better when it focus on the New 52 vibe, not on Rebirth.
    Last edited by Korath; 07-22-2021 at 05:59 AM.

  11. #86
    Hey Baby--Wha's Happ'nin? HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    This is what blows my mind about DC: they've managed to splinter almost every fan base they have into zero-sum factions.
    From the comics all the way to their movies. They just keep doing it and it's terrible!

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Three rabid fans in an echo chamber do not a devoted fanbase make. It can probably sustain a mini-series or something, but it's not a franchise with the legs for an ongoing - and DC comics should move away from ongoings as much as possible. Give creators who want to play with specific characters a mini to really run wild.
    Well, again, I think you're belittling the actual amount of support and following these characters have. DC wouldn't have felt any pressure to bring them back into continuity if it truly was only three total fans.

    Also, again, pretty sure that the JSA wouldn't be the focus of an entire CW series like Stargirl or be appearing in the upcoming Black Adam film if nobody cared about them...

    I don't get the hostility toward these characters' very existence.

    And yeah, New 52 didn't do everything right, of course. But I still prefer this era to most of what came out of Rebirth save stuff which leaned heavily on New 52 (like Red Hood and the Outlaws) and feel like Infinite Frontier is better when it focuses on the New 52 vibe, not on Rebirth.
    I honestly cannot think of any New 52 vibe that Infinite Frontier has focused on, if only because most of the characters at the center of Infinite Frontier didn't exist during the New 52. Infinite Frontier is very much giving off classic DC Universe vibes, and I think it's better for that.

    Bottom line: the New 52 was not really a good time for DC. It really only reflected what one guy wanted, a guy who is no longer even at the company.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 07-22-2021 at 06:55 AM.

  13. #88
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    The irony, to me, is that Nu52 reflected a lot of 90s sensibilities, being done by a team that seemed to loath the 90s themselves.

    But as the creation of Superboy Prime demonstrates, self awareness isn't a DC thing.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    The irony, to me, is that Nu52 reflected a lot of 90s sensibilities, being done by a team that seemed to loath the 90s themselves.

    But as the creation of Superboy Prime demonstrates, self awareness isn't a DC thing.
    Hell, most of DC's worst comics in the 21st Century came out in the 2000s or 2010s not the 90s.

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Would be weird if worst 21st century comics came out in 20th century.

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