Anyone else feels like 2011-2020 was Dan DiDio's insane fanfic and now...

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

...with Infinite Frontier the real DCU is back?


It feels like a lost decade: They spent the first half of the 2010s destroying everything people loved and the second trying to reconstruct it in spite of stuff like Heroes in Crisis. But now with DiDio gone we are back to where we were in 2010 (plus whatever good developments came from New 52/Rebirth) and now we can truly move again. The JSA is back, Post-Crisis Superman married with Lois is back (he's been back for a while, I know), Wally is back, Connor Hawke is back, Barbara is back as Oracle (plus she gets to be Batgirl too!), the history is back. While I don't love every title, Infinite Frontier feels again like the DCU I loved: A place that feels lived-in and with storie histories.

I have to say, I'm pretty much 100% agreed. Infinite Frontier and the other current DC books actually feel like they take place in a superhero community with ACTUAL HISTORY and ACTUAL RELATIONSHIPS between the characters. It's also nice to see some actual DIVERSITY in terms of who gets the focus. I don't think that we would have gotten an event focusing on Alan Scott, Roy Harper, Jade, Obsidian, and Cameron Chase during the New 52. If only because a majority of those characters didn't even EXIST during the New 52. They were written out of continuity.

Infinite Frontier feels like 52. The OG 52 from 2006, which is one of the best comic book events ever written. So, that's a good thing.

If this were still the New 52, the event would be starring ONLY the Justice League (with majority of focus on Batman, let's be honest). Alan Scott who? Psycho Pirate who? Captain Atom who? Magog who?

I don't even think that, during the New 52, we would have seen characters like Peacemaker taking a central role in Suicide Squad, as it would have just been all about Harley Quinn. Not that Harley's bad. But having her as the star of Suicide Squad is just another symptom of the "Batmanification" of the DC Universe.

Which is honestly how Didio seemed to want it at the time. It seemed he was very much against any characters who took focus away from the core 7 of the JLA even existing. So, no legacy characters or at least, significantly less legacy characters, as the only ones who survived were the ones with too vocal of a fanbase to kill off completely like Nightwing. That also means that pretty much every non-Batman or GL related character either didn't exist anymore or had their histories completely scrubbed.

Ted Kord? Erased. Booster Gold? Completely rewritten. Jaime Reyes? Rebooted. Titans? Erased. JSA? Erased. Jennifer and Anissa Pierce? Erased. Grace Choi? Erased. Nubia? Erased. Donna Troy? Erased then rebooted in a way that was truly cringe-worthy.

And in doing that, Didio (inadvertently) erased the things that gave the DCU texture. That made it MORE than just Batman, Superman, and the Justice League. The things that brought in a lot of fans and communicated the point: "Hey, the DCU is a place with history, a place with wonder, a place where heroes have gone through things and have forged bonds with one another and some have even fallen in love and had families." In other words, the things that made the DCU interesting and gave it an actual lore...

[king81992]

I'm not fond of the idea of Titans Academy, so haven't read it. I am sick to death of futures (inevitably dark) being brought in. It's meaningless. It's never going to happen. It's a plotline that's never going to go anywhere, unlikely to have a long-term consequence, tends towards the gritty and "shocking" flavor, and it's not entertaining for me to read. Stories in the here and and now, with no alternate and no future versions of characters would be nice.

Titans Academy's biggest problem isn't the bad future, its the lack of focus on the Titans and the shilling of Red X, who should've been introduced into comic canon much earlier. Outside of 'who is Red X?' and hopefully preventing the bad end we saw in Future State are the only things the series has going for it.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Honestly, most of the reasons I find the current DCU bearable as a whole is because of whatever remains of New 52, new characters entirely (like Naomi) or some already kind of established characters being allowed to displace older ones from their mantles, forcing those into new stories which was sorely needed (such as Clark and Jon Kent, Jackson Hyde and Arthur, etc.).

This is actually an ironic statement considering that the New 52 erased most of the legacy characters that had taken over the mantles of older, Silver Age characters. Characters like Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, Connor Hawke, Shilo Norman, Kendra Saunders, Conner Kent, etc. It also erased most of the BIPOC and/or LGBTQ characters in the DCU, like Obsidian, Kimiyo Hoshi Dr. Light, Jennifer and Anissa Pierce, Grace Choi, etc.

Also, Jackson Hyde existed before he New 52. He was introduced in Brightest Day. And I don't think we can credit the New 52 with Jon Kent's existence, since he was famously introduced as the son of Pre-Flashpoint Clark Kent and Lois Lane. New 52 Superman wasn't even with Lois.

So, yeah, it's kind of ironic that you'd credit the New 52 with these things, when it arguably didn't accomplish any of these things and set DC back in these regards.

But I have 0 interest in anything JSA related, and I'd rather DC focused on the Justice Incarnate characters than those old teams who have, IMHO, no place of worth in the current comics medium.

The fact that they have such a devoted fanbase that wants to see them and they're receiving attention in outside media means that they absolutely do have a place of worth in the current comics medium.

[D.Z]

Nothing published is fan fiction. No DC universe or era is more real than the others.

[InfamousBG]

...with Infinite Frontier the real DCU is back?


It feels like a lost decade: They spent the first half of the 2010s destroying everything people loved and the second trying to reconstruct it in spite of stuff like Heroes in Crisis. But now with DiDio gone we are back to where we were in 2010 (plus whatever good developments came from New 52/Rebirth) and now we can truly move again. The JSA is back, Post-Crisis Superman married with Lois is back (he's been back for a while, I know), Wally is back, Connor Hawke is back, Barbara is back as Oracle (plus she gets to be Batgirl too!), the history is back. While I don't love every title, Infinite Frontier feels again like the DCU I loved: A place that feels lived-in and with storie histories.

I totally agree with you.

[Sacred Knight]

Not at all. I feel like things are getting so bad now they're going to be forced to reboot again. If anything all this forced legacy is making things feel more unrecognizable than the prior reboot ever did. Furthermore history is meaningless to me if it makes no sense, and it makes less sense now than it did in 2010, which in of itself was already pretty bad.

This doesn't at all feel like the pre-Flashpoint continuity. Indeed, this new regime is taking heavily from Didio's ideas in the first place, so a version of his vision is very much still at work.

[Veni]

No. I feel like things are getting so bad now they're going to be forced to reboot again.

My thoughts exactly.

[universo]

I hope that with the Warner-Discovery merger that things will get better because even though the merger will not occur until mid-2022 the trades are reporting that Discovery CEO David Zaslav wants the merger to happen as quickly as possible. Besides DC will be under new leadership as Discovery will own half of DC. Another event or reboot will definitely happen.

I personally think that discovey will focus more on the audiovisual works of DC, I don't think it cares much about the comics.
surely we will have more retcon that will bring more continuity pre flashpoint, but I do not think that a new reboot.

[D.Z]

It's similar to pre flashpoint with some changes. Moving on.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I personally think that discovey will focus more on the audiovisual works of DC, I don't think it cares much about the comics.
surely we will have more retcon that will bring more continuity pre flashpoint, but I do not think that a new reboot.

I remember Chuck Dixon once saying that WB is barely aware of the fact that they still produce comics. I imagine they care more about the copyright than the quality of stories now.

[Holt]

Discovery will care about as much about the comics as Disney does about Marvel's. Which is to say, virtually not at all beyond providing fodder for more profitable ventures like movies, TV shows, video games, toys and apparel.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Not at all. I feel like things are getting so bad now they're going to be forced to reboot again. If anything all this forced legacy is making things feel more unrecognizable than the prior reboot ever did. Furthermore history is meaningless to me if it makes no sense, and it makes less sense now than it did in 2010, which in of itself was already pretty bad.

This doesn't at all feel like the pre-Flashpoint continuity. Indeed, this new regime is taking heavily from Didio's ideas in the first place, so a version of his vision is very much still at work.

I think we need to be honest: if there is anything left of Didio's "vision" for the DC Universe, it's negligible at best.

Didio's vision essentially revolved around the idea that the DC heroes were all freshly rebooted with no legacies or "extended families" and that this was a "ground floor" of sorts for people to get involved in the DC Universe. And that THAT would be the DC Universe going forward. A completely new slate. And while that could be seen as desirable by some, again, it had the effect of removing pretty much everything that gave the DCU texture.

Obviously, now, the DC Universe does not follow that vision. In fact, the New 52 is being treated, if anything, as an aberration. Literally. One of the main plot points of Infinite Frontier is that the characters are aware of the New 52 being a period in the DC timeline where history and characters had been removed, but now the timeline has begun to correct itself.

And they're not beating around the bush with it like they did during Rebirth. They're straight up saying "yeah, this otherworldly blue god-man thing erased some of our lives and friends but now our world is returning to normal and our friends and our histories are mostly (if not completely) restored." For example, the Roy Harper who is starring in Infinite Frontier right now was is the Roy Harper who was a part of the classic Green Arrow/Speedy duo and the classic Teen Titans and had a daughter with Cheshire, Lian, who died, etc. He makes direct reference to both of those things in the pages of Infinite Frontier.

So, if Didio's vision was to have a DC Universe that had no history or continuity prior to 2011 (which it was), well, that vision is basically dead at this point.

[MajorHoy]

. . . And I don't think we can credit the New 52 with Jon Kent's existence, since he was famously introduced as the son of Pre-Flashpoint Clark Kent and Lois Lane. New 52 Superman wasn't even with Lois...

However, Jon was introduced/born during Convergence, an event during the New52 run. And the series with him and his parents on the then-current DC Earth (Superman: Lois & Clark) was published during the DCYou phase.

So the fact that his parents were originally from the pre-Flashpoint continuity means nothing in Jon's case.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

However, Jon was introduced/born during Convergence, an event during the New52 run. And the series with him and his parents on the then-current DC Earth (Superman: Lois & Clark) was published during the DCYou phase.

So the fact that his parents were originally from the pre-Flashpoint continuity means nothing in Jon's case.

No, I'm pretty sure it does because the whole point of the New 52 was rebooting the universe with a fresh slate with no referencing story or character developments pre-2011. That means, obviously, no marriage between Lois and Clark.

The reason that the Lois & Clark miniseries was even published was that, by that point, it'd become clear that the New 52 was not going over well with most fans and was unsustainable. So, DC introduced a bit of Pre-Flashpoint nostalgia. And THEN, in the Rebirth Era, THAT'S when Jon and a remarried Lois and Clark were reintroduced into the main DC Universe.

So, if there's anything that should be credited for Jon's introduction, it'd be fans' wish to return to Pre-Flashpoint and Rebirth. You know, that thing that was pretty much the beginning of the end of the New 52 continuity...

[Sacred Knight]

I think we need to be honest: if there is anything left of Didio's "vision" for the DC Universe, it's negligible at best.

Didio's vision essentially revolved around the idea that the DC heroes were all freshly rebooted with no legacies or "extended families" and that this was a "ground floor" of sorts for people to get involved in the DC Universe. And that THAT would be the DC Universe going forward. A completely new slate. And while that could be seen as desirable by some, again, it had the effect of removing pretty much everything that gave the DCU texture.

Obviously, now, the DC Universe does not follow that vision. In fact, the New 52 is being treated, if anything, as an aberration. Literally. One of the main plot points of Infinite Frontier is that the characters are aware of the New 52 being a period in the DC timeline where history and characters had been removed, but now the timeline has begun to correct itself.

And they're not beating around the bush with it like they did during Rebirth. They're straight up saying "yeah, this otherworldly blue god-man thing erased some of our lives and friends but now our world is returning to normal and our friends and our histories are mostly (if not completely) restored." For example, the Roy Harper who is starring in Infinite Frontier right now was is the Roy Harper who was a part of the classic Green Arrow/Speedy duo and the classic Teen Titans and had a daughter with Cheshire, Lian, who died, etc. He makes direct reference to both of those things in the pages of Infinite Frontier.

So, if Didio's vision was to have a DC Universe that had no history or continuity prior to 2011 (which it was), well, that vision is basically dead at this point.

I thought that at first. But seeing Infinite Frontier has been playing out, I think its far more based on 5G than anyone ever anticipated. Thing is, while all of what you said is accurate, that was what Didio was doing before. That was the Didio of 10+ years ago. 5G was a different animal, he was doing something different. Whether the changed mindset was something he truly believed in, or whether it was a last ditch effort, it was wholly different from his usual MO nonetheless. That's what I think the new regime is adapting. Thus why I still think this has Didios fingerprints all over it. Just the fingerprints of his altered mindset when it came to crafting 5G. And to me, it just doesn't work. Replacement doesn't jive with me and that looks to still be what they're driving toward.

IF is going too far in the other direction. If the Didio of the past erased texture by erasing too much legacy, IF/5G is erasing texture by minimizing the classics for the sake of brand new legacy I can't bring myself to care a lick about outside of a very select few.