End of most of the golden age heroes

[Tzigone]

I know that superhero comics weren't selling so well, so they got rid of a lot. Obviously, Superman and Batman were strong titles then.

But have we ever heard anything about why Green Arrow and Aquaman continued v. any other heroes? I can see that Flash and Green Lantern had since had their titles canceled, but had they actually become less popular than those two? And was there ever any indication on whether Wonder Woman's sales merited keeping her own title or if it was only done for legal reasons, to keep IP (seems unlikely, since Sensation Comics wasn't canceled in 1949 like GL and Flash - her struggles may have come a bit later and that's another discussion worth having, but would need old sales history).

Which was the first of the previously-popular heroes to be removed from publication in the era?

[Jim Kelly]

I wrote a piece on this for my blog some years ago. I'll copy and paste it here [cut to fit character limit]:

how jack schiff saved green arrow’s life

It’s a commonly repeated factoid that the only super-heroes to survive in continuous publication, after the Golden Age and after the culling of costumed crimefighters in the ’50s, were Superman, Batman (and Robin), Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Green Arrow.

How Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman survived seems self-evident. They all were featured in some of the best selling comics at the time. They were popular. It’s easy to assume that Aquaman and Green Arrow survived by riding their coat-tails–or rather their capes. In point of fact, since both Aquaman and Green Arrow were featured in ADVENTURE COMICS in the ’50s, they might have survived by being featured in the same book that starred Superboy (adventures of Superman when he was a boy). Green Arrow had the extra luck of also appearing in WORLD’S FINEST COMICS.

Now how did Aquaman and Green Arrow have the good fortune to stay in ADVENTURE for all that time? I assumed it had to be Mort Weisinger, who co-created both characters and as the editor of ADVENTURE COMICS–out of his own self-interest–who saved them. That might be part of it, but it’s not that simple . . .


> The popularity of Superman–starts the whole trend toward using mystery men in comics (mystery men being another term for what we now call super-heroes). Each of the DC anthology titles needed to have its own mystery man.

> DETECTIVE COMICS adds the Crimson Avenger to its line up in issue 20. Then Batman in issue 27.

> ADVENTURE COMICS gets Sandman.

> MORE FUN COMICS takes a longer time recruiting its mystery man but eventually puts in the Spectre.

> 1940, All-American Comics, Inc., publishes FLASH COMICS with a multitude of mystery men, showing that more than one super-hero can appear in an anthology.

> ADVENTURE COMICS adds Hourman to its roster.

> MORE FUN COMICS gets Doctor Fate.

> The long running Tex Thompson in ACTION becomes a mystery man, Mr. America, with his own costumed sidekick, Fatman.

> Starman (co-created by Jack Schiff with Jack Burnley) comes on board ADVENTURE in issue 61 and the Shining Knight in issue 66.

> The Shining Knight is set in modern day, but has some period elements and might be considered a hybrid hero–knight + mystery man. Hybrids are the new thing. ACTION COMICS soon adds its own hybrid, the Vigilante (cowboy + mystery man), in issue 42.

> 1941, Mort Weisinger is the editor of MORE FUN COMICS (and other DC titles). Doctor Fate remains the cover-featured character, but Weisinger adds his own speedster in issue 71 (cover dated September ’41) on sale July 24 ’41. Competing with the Flash, Johnny Quick is co-created by Mort with artist Mort Meskin.

> In issue 73 (November ’41), on sale in September, the same month as the Vigilante’s debut, MORE FUN adds two more heroes, also co-created by Weisinger: Green Arrow (and Speedy)–co-created with artist George Papp; and Aquaman–co-created with artist Paul Norris.

> Green Arrow and Speedy are also lucky enough to get a place in the Seven Soldiers of Victory (along with Shining Knight, Crimson Avenger, Vigilante, Star Spangled Kid and Stripesy) in the first issue of LEADING COMICS (Winter ’41), on sale December 7 ’41 (Pearl Harbor Day).

> The luck runs out for the SSoV pretty quick, but Green Arrow also scores a spot in WORLD’S FINEST COMICS, starting with issue No. 7 (Fall ’42), on sale July 31 ’42.

> By the end of ’42, Mort Weisinger is called up for service in World War II, and Jack Schiff takes over titles that Mort had edited, including ADVENTURE, MORE FUN and WORLD’S FINEST (Green Arrow’s other home).

> 1944, Superboy is added to the MORE FUN roster with issue 101 (July-August ’44) on sale May 23 ’44. Which turns out to be the last issue for the Spectre–Doctor Fate having already left in issue 98.

> Not long after that, most of the MORE FUN occupants have to go begging for a place to stay. With issue 107 (January-February ’46), the format changes to all humour, leaving Dover and Clover (a Henry Boltinoff comedy feature) as the only remaining feature from the previous issues. Even Schiff himself has to leave MORE FUN.

> Superboy, Johnny Quick, Green Arrow and Aquaman move into ADVENTURE COMICS 103 (April ’46), on sale February 28 ’46–with the Shining Knight, who has always made ADVENTURE his home. Another comedy feature, Genius Jones, which has been a resident of ADVENTURE, moves over to MORE FUN. But the other previous occupants–Sandman, Starman and Mike Gibbs–have no place to go.

> As of ADVENTURE COMICS 152 (May ’50), on sale March 29 ’50, the number of featured spots goes down from five to four. By this time, Superboy has his own title, but he isn’t about to give up ADVENTURE as he is now the star. Green Arrow has his regular spot in WORLD’S FINEST. But Green Arrow, Shining Knight, Aquaman and Johnny Quick have to jockey for position in ADVENTURE.

> This goes on for a whole year, with one of the four being left out in any given issue, until issue 166, which was the last issue for the Shining Knight.

> By the way, this might explain why Ramona Fradon had her long run on Aquaman. She had been the artist on Shining Knight for his last two stories in ADVENTURE, BUT when he lost that spot, Ramona was shifted onto Aquaman. Perhaps Schiff didn’t want to leave Fradon without a job, so he handed her the Sea King.

> 1953, Mort Weisinger resumes as editor on ADVENTURE COMICS (more than a decade after leaving it with Jack Schiff).

> Then with ADVENTURE 205 (October ’54) pages are being cut from DC comics, which leaves only three spots open. Superboy holds his own, but now Green Arrow, Aquaman and Johnny Quick are on a round-robin for placement. Editor Weisinger has to choose between three characters he had created. Given that Green Arrow still has a spot in WORLD’S FINEST (edited by Schiff), Mort could have saved all three by cutting Green Arrow from ADVENTURE. But he didn’t do that, instead Weisinger cut Johnny Quick–issue 207 (December ’54) being the last for Johnny.

> Another sea-change occurs when Congo Bill is pushed out of his long held spot in ACTION COMICS. He comes over to ADVENTURE COMICS with issue 270 (March ’60) on sale January 28 ’60. And that cuts Green Arrow out of ADVENTURE.

> By this time, Aquaman is being featured with the Justice League, who got their first try-out the month before, in THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD 28 (February-March 1960) on sale December 29 ’59.

> Aquaman goes on to get his own try-out in 1960 which led to the ongoing AQUAMAN title. Green Arrow had been left out of the Justice League but at least he still had his spot in WORLD’S FINEST, thanks to Jack Schiff!


. . . Months later, Green Arrow got his spot on the Justice League. And a few years later, Green Arrow lost his feature in WORLD’S FINEST, when Jack Schiff left that title. Without the Justice League to keep him in the public eye, Green Arrow might’ve gone the way of other second banana heroes.

[DrNewGod]

It's not that Aquaman and Green Arrow were more popular than Flash and Green Lantern, it's that they were more popular than the other features riding on Superboy's cape.

Aquaman and Green Arrow (along with Johnny Quick) were backup features in More Fun Comics, home of The Spectre and Dr. Fate. Both those mystical characters fell out of favor by the mid-1940s, and by 1945 Superboy took over the main feature of More Fun Comics. About a year later, More Fun Comics was converted to all humor, and the superhero features were all moved to Adventure Comics, displacing all of the latter titles features except The Shining Knight (it's in bits and pieces, but the late, great Don Markham's write ups cover the details). As page counts shrank, backup features began disappearing; first Shining Knight (1951), and then Johnny Quick (1954). Aquaman and Green Arrow would likely have been next, but around then, the superheroes began a comeback. So, those two owe their uninterrupted survival into the Silver Age to Superboy.

You also have to remember that DC's editorial architecture had something to do with it. Flash, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman were all part of the All-American Comics line, while Superman, Batman, and the inhabitants of both Adventure Comics and More Fun Comics belonged to National Comics. Although the two were symbiotic, and almost ran like one firm, they were distinct companies until National bought out AAC's owner. So it's not that surprising that the National characters fared a bit better than their AAC counterparts.

ETA: Jim Kelly said it better than me.

[Jim Kelly]

It seems like once Max Gaines sold his share of All-American Comics, Inc., to Harry Donenfeld (and Jack Liebowitz who already owned half of All-American)--those acquisitions and the editors that came with them (Bob Kanigher and Julie Schwartz) were considered junior to the senior company (D.C./National Allied). All of this became National Comics, Inc. And the All-American line was never treated as well as the senior Detective Comics, Inc., line. So if a book was going to be cancelled it would be an All-American one before a D.C. Likewise with characters. So Green Lantern and Flash got cancelled even though they were big names (they managed to survive for a couple of years more in ALL-STAR COMICS, in the Justice Society).

However, Wonder Woman never suffered this fate. This tells me that Wonder Woman was more valuable. Maybe D.C. bought All-American just so they could own Wonder Woman. The agreement with the Marstons that Wonder Woman would always appear four times a year (the WONDER WOMAN title began as a quarterly) might have kept her in publication--but why would National Comics worry about that unless she was valuable to them? It seems like the Amazing Amazon was a special case and she brought in enough readers and enough money to justify the machinations required to retain her. But even Wonder Woman wasn't that lucky--she lost her place in SENSATION COMICS--so even she must have had a decline in sales as the 1950s began.

[Adekis]

I wrote a piece on this for my blog some years ago.

. . . Months later, Green Arrow got his spot on the Justice League. And a few years later, Green Arrow lost his feature in WORLD’S FINEST, when Jack Schiff left that title. Without the Justice League to keep him in the public eye, Green Arrow might’ve gone the way of other second banana heroes.

Holy cow, great history lesson, Jim!

[DrNewGod]

...Then with ADVENTURE 205 (October ’54) pages are being cut from DC comics, which leaves only three spots open. Superboy holds his own, but now Green Arrow, Aquaman and Johnny Quick are on a round-robin for placement. Editor Weisinger has to choose between three characters he had created. Given that Green Arrow still has a spot in WORLD’S FINEST (edited by Schiff), Mort could have saved all three by cutting Green Arrow from ADVENTURE. But he didn’t do that, instead Weisinger cut Johnny Quick–issue 207 (December ’54) being the last for Johnny...Months later, Green Arrow got his spot on the Justice League. And a few years later, Green Arrow lost his feature in WORLD’S FINEST, when Jack Schiff left that title. Without the Justice League to keep him in the public eye, Green Arrow might’ve gone the way of other second banana heroes.

It does rather beg the question of why Schiff chose to cull Johnny Quick rather than Green Arrow? GA was rather redundant next to the more popular Batman, and as The Flash was almost two years away from his reboot in Showcase, Aquaman and JQ were the more distinctive of the three characters rotating in Adventure Comics.

[Jim Kelly]

It does rather beg the question of why Schiff chose to cull Johnny Quick rather than Green Arrow? GA was rather redundant next to the more popular Batman, and as The Flash was almost two years away from his reboot in Showcase, Aquaman and JQ were the more distinctive of the three characters rotating in Adventure Comics.

[I think you meant Weisinger] Like I said in that quote, it was weird that Mort decided to cut Johnny given Ollie was in WORLD'S FINEST (albeit edited by Jack) and all three of his co-creations could have been saved. So this tells me that while Mort may have had a preference for keeping his own characters in publication, that wasn't the only thing he took into account.

It could be the artist on Johnny Quick that was the reason--at the time, Ralph Mayo. After losing Johnny Quick, Mayo only did a few more jobs for National. He then went to Atlas (Marvel) and mainly worked on Jann of the Jungle, but died soon after in 1956.

However, this doesn't seem like a good enough reason, since Weisinger could replace artists. But Mort seems to have had a good working relationship with both George Papp (co-creator of Green Arrow) and Ramona Fradon (on Aquaman)--so he might have wanted to keep giving them work and Ralph lost out. Losing his Green Arrow gig (to Jack Kirby) in 1958 didn't hurt Papp because he had won the Superboy feature, which would have been the brass ring.

Mort may have known which characters the readers liked best and Green Arrow was the favourite of those (which would explain why he was in both ADVENTURE and WORLD'S FINEST) followed by Aquaman.

Personally, I think that Johnny Quick was the better character and should have been saved. But Johnny was your typical super-hero--and they already had Superboy. Green Arrow and Aquaman are more like hybrids of super-heroes with something else. In the case of Green Arrow he has the whole Robin Hood thing going for him (and Robin Hood was a popular character in the 1950s), while Aquaman has the deep sea adventure angle.

[Digifiend]

If Johnny Quick had survived another two years, would Barry Allen, the second Flash, have ever been created? They might have thought they didn't need another speedster.

I'm surprised to learn that Johnny actually ran longer than Jay Garrick in the golden age.

[DrNewGod]

[I think you meant Weisinger]...

My bad

...Personally, I think that Johnny Quick was the better character and should have been saved. But Johnny was your typical super-hero--and they already had Superboy. Green Arrow and Aquaman are more like hybrids of super-heroes with something else. In the case of Green Arrow he has the whole Robin Hood thing going for him (and Robin Hood was a popular character in the 1950s), while Aquaman has the deep sea adventure angle.

I tend to agree. I wonder if there was some thought that JQ's civilian career (news reel photographer) was passing out of vogue. TV and TV news were on the rise, and news reels were losing their cache. Still, it wouldn't have seemed that difficult to move Johnny from Sees All Tells All to a fictitious "ABS" style tv network.

[Jim Kelly]

If Johnny was in ADVENTURE COMICS in 1956, I don't see any way that the Flash would have been in SHOWCASE 4. Julius Schwartz got enough resistance from the other editors as it was. After the first Flash try-out, Jack Schiff got one issue for his Manhunters and two issues for his Challengers of the Unknown, before the next Flash try-out in SHOWCASE 8. Then Mort Weisinger got two try-out issues for his Lois Lane. After which Schiff got two more issues for Challengers of the Unknown, again. Then, finally, the Flash got his last two try-outs in SHOWCASE 13 and 14. Only after all that did THE FLASH finally get his own title, on sale in December 1958. By that time THE CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN had had six issues come out and SUPERMAN'S GIRL FRIEND, LOIS LANE had had seven.

Bob Rozakis did a series of articles for ALTER-EGO and BACK ISSUE, where he imagined a world in which it was the All-American line that came out on top and the Detective Comics line went under. So in that world Green Lantern (Alan Scott) and the Flash (Jay Garrick) were the top two characters. Those articles were collected in THE SECRET HISTORY OF AA COMICS (2011, Bob Star Publishing).