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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Default The MCU Should've Used Goliath & Wasp instead of Black Widow & Hakwkeye

    Looking back on the MCU, I think it's more apparent that Marvel should've used Goliath and Wasp as founding Avengers rather than Black Widow or Hawkeye.



    Black Widow has a great backstory and motivation in the MCU, which is wanting to "clear the red off [her] ledger." From a narrative standpoint, she works as the middle point in the Steve/Tony conflict, having appeared as a supporting character in each of their trilogies. She looks up to Steve's integrity, while understanding Tony's desire for redemption and oversight. I'd say the only problem with her place in the MCU overall is that she's just a baseline human. I thought she'd turn out to be the biological daughter of a super soldier or have gotten some enhancements in the Red Room, but that turned out not to be the case. Presumably anyone with training in the MCU can do what she does, which makes the most prominent female character both weak and generic. If I could go back in time, I'd replace her with a Wasp legacy character (Hope Pym), and give the Wasp a similar backstory motivation of wanting to clear up the red off her ledger. This Wasp would've been the daughter of Hank and Janet, who was raised as a spy after getting kidnapped or something, then later became the new Wasp. Her relationship with her parents would add another layer of complexity to her character, and she'd still be able to fill the Black Widow role, while being more powerful and unique.



    Hawkeye has proven to be generic overall, even since the first film. He's got a cool visual gimmick, but that's really it. Personality-wise, he's basically a male version of Natasha who goes through the trauma of losing his family. His redundancy is probably why he's so underutilized, despite being a founding Avenger. If I could go back, I'd replace him with a younger Bill Foster, who'd be similarly positioned to Black Widow as a middle point between Steve and Tony. He'd have a background as both a soldier and a scientist, which means that he could be used to provide a similar but different PoV to our version of the Wasp, allowing for juxtaposition. Motivation and personality-wise, he'd be more like Anthony Mackie's Falcon, who had a much more standout personality in a team dynamic. Besides just wanting to be a good guy like Sam Wilson, he'd have the added layer of being someone who's studied Hank Pym's work and career, idolizing Hank, while Hank's daughter can't stand her father (at first). In the first Avengers film, Hulk would've been the mind-controlled character, since Hulk's personality dynamic within the group isn't really complex. Goliath would stand in for Banner, as the group have to deal with both Loki and Hulk. You could even have cast Anthony Mackie to bring his larger than life personality. Over the course of the first three phases, we see Steve and Tony paired up, and we see Thor and Hulk paired up. In this scenario, Wasp and Goliath would've only started to get to know each other in the Avengers, with their relationship developing over time as conflict developed within the team. Their romance would blossom as the team fell apart and would be tested by the fractured nature of the Avengers.



    Yeah, it's fanfic, but I think it's a setup for something more compelling than what we got. The 5th and 6th slots on the founding roster probably would've stood out more and added more depth and diversity to the MCU. It would've also reflected the comics better. And I don't mind that the team would end up being color coordinated:

    -Cap = Blue
    -Iron Man = Red
    -Thor = Black
    -Hulk = Green
    -Wasp = Yellow
    -Goliath = White

    You wouldn't even need to give them their own Phase 1 film to pull this off, especially since Perlmutter probably would've pushed against it anyway.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 08-01-2021 at 11:21 AM.

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I would have preferred the actual Antman and Wasp who were the founding members. Wasp/Janet even suggested their name.

    All the stuff with Ultron could have developed differently, even the addition of Pietro and Wanda.

    Nothing personal about the Widow, but it didn't resonate for me in the first movies. She could have come later, been more mysterious until we find out WHY.
    ~ Oberon ~
    Comic-book reading Witch and Pagan since 1970
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  3. #3
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    You would absolutely need their own movie.

    Widow and Hawkeye work because there is nothing to really explain. They are really good SHIELD agents. The end.


    If Edgar didn't take 100 years to get Ant-Man going, he would have been in hte first movie in some way.
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  4. #4
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    I think the original Hank & Jan would've been best. Far better than Clint & Natasha (no offense to their fans), although Natasha could've shown up anyway. But as MindShadow said, they needed their own movie first, which would've been good to have in Phase 1. But it probably would've made Ultron less generic

  5. #5

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    MindofShadow is right. You'd either have give their own film or retool an existing film for them.

    I heard a rumor that Fiege wanted a few sequels before Avengers. But Incredible Hulk underperformed at the box office and those sequels were cut. So if those sequels did happen, I'd put Goliath and Wasp there. They would be secondary characters.

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    I think they would've needed their own movies at some point, but just mentioning that they use pretty-much-impossible-to-replicate super suits is fine for the first Avengers film, especially if they have military backstories. A lot of who they are can be established by flashback or dialogue, like how Falcon was introduced in the Winter Soldier. I mean, a lot of folks just walked into the Avengers as their first MCU film or didn't see all of the lead-up films. I believe that's how Joss wanted to introduce Wasp in the Avengers films anyway.

    I think the added benefit of Goliath and Hank's daughter is the diversity they bring to the team. You have at least one person of color and potentially two, if Hope is an adopted daughter or biracial. If you cast someone like Olivia Munn as the original Wasp's daughter, you could have Janet herself be Asian, like in the Ultimates line.



    I think Marvel also wanted to avoid the Hank Pym controversies being memed before their movie came out. That's why they went with Scott Lang, right?
    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 07-20-2021 at 08:27 AM.

  7. #7
    Spectacular Member The Invincible Beawulf's Avatar
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    or they could 've used both Black Widow and the Wasp
    this way I wouldn't have the feeling that BW was meant to be the token woman in the Avengers

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Invincible Beawulf View Post
    or they could 've used both Black Widow and the Wasp
    this way I wouldn't have the feeling that BW was meant to be the token woman in the Avengers
    They could barely handle a 6 person team in the first film, having Hawkeye under mind control and with no personality. Why do you think they could handle 7-8 leads?

  9. #9
    Spectacular Member The Invincible Beawulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    They could barely handle a 6 person team in the first film, having Hawkeye under mind control and with no personality. Why do you think they could handle 7-8 leads?
    maybe instead of Hawkeye, they could 've used BW in that role
    and the Wasp still could 've been part of the team

  10. #10
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    I think Marvel also wanted to avoid the Hank Pym controversies being memed before their movie came out. That's why they went with Scott Lang, right?
    Hank Pym was heavily used in animated Avengers appearances around the time and eventually showed up in Ant-Man so they weren't afraid of controversy.
    Edgar Wright was just a fan of both characters.
    "Cable was right!"

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    You would absolutely need their own movie.

    Widow and Hawkeye work because there is nothing to really explain. They are really good SHIELD agents. The end.


    If Edgar didn't take 100 years to get Ant-Man going, he would have been in hte first movie in some way.
    This right here.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member Witchfan's Avatar
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    Replacing Hawkeye with Wasp in the first film would have been best. Then the team would have had two females.

  13. #13
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    I wish Wasp or Ant-Man were introduced in Avengers just to see how'd they half-ass the Pym Particle introduction.
    "Cable was right!"

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchfan View Post
    Replacing Hawkeye with Wasp in the first film would have been best. Then the team would have had two females.
    I rather use Mockingbird instead of Wasp. She requires less budget to use and easier to handwave. Plus she started out as a scientist so that's something you could use in Thor and Avengers.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 07-20-2021 at 09:19 AM.

  15. #15
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Mockingbird is American Black Widow.
    "Cable was right!"

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