The MCU Should've Used Goliath & Wasp instead of Black Widow & Hakwkeye

[CosmiComic]

Nah, Nat and Clint are infinitely more interesting to me in both comics and MCU. However it came about, the MCU Avengers roster is just fine.

That's fine. I don't think those 2 are that interesting in either medium.

[newparisian]

That's fine. I don't think those 2 are that interesting in either medium.

Cool.

In the comics, what is Janet's claim to fame, completely separate from Hank? She's good at fashion, I think. Not to be too nerdy, but what are her "feets"? She led the Avengers at one point, right? But so has half the MU. What drives her to be a hero? Did she acquire her powers herself? Is she like super smart or a tactical genius or good at combat? What's her personality? What are her top 5 comic stories where she drove the plot and people were like, damn, that's cool, now that's why Janet is the ****? She ever held down an ongoing or critically acclaimed run, like Fraction's Hawkeye or Rucka/Waid/Edmondson's Widow, for instance?

Honestly wondering. I haven't read much of Avengers from the 60s through the 90s, except the big stuff like Kree Skrull War and then Busiek's run.

[Triniking1234]

I don't exactly follow what you're saying. It's not like the MCU hasn't made questionable or imperfect decisions.

There's nothing questionable or imperfect here. Hawkeye and Black Widow are Avengers mainstays especially Clint who was added when Stan was still on the book. There's nothing wrong with adding them before Hank and Janet.

[CosmiComic]

Cool.

In the comics, what is Janet's claim to fame, completely separate from Hank? She's good at fashion, I think. Not to be too nerdy, but what are her "feets"? She led the Avengers at one point, right? But so has half the MU. What drives her to be a hero? Did she acquire her powers herself? Is she like super smart or a tactical genius or good at combat? What's her personality? What are her top 5 comic stories where she drove the plot and people were like, damn, that's cool, now that's why Janet is the ****? She ever held down an ongoing or critically acclaimed run, like Fraction's Hawkeye or Rucka/Waid/Edmondson's Widow, for instance?

Honestly wondering. I haven't read much of Avengers from the 60s through the 90s, except the big stuff like Kree Skrull War and then Busiek's run.

I don't have a lot of those kinds of answers. I've never been a "feats" kind of reader. I just follow characters. She was a leader of the Avengers and there was the whole "Hank hitting her" storyline where she left him. I don't think she's necessarily a genius. I just find her backstory and rise through the Avengers more interesting than Black Widow's or Hawkeye's.

And part of the problem is her being treated like an accessory to Hank, although that had been lessened at some points.

There's nothing questionable or imperfect here. Hawkeye and Black Widow are Avengers mainstays especially Clint who was added when Stan was still on the book. There's nothing wrong with adding them before Hank and Janet.

I'm just speaking in general. But the fact that the MCU added Clint first while doing barely anything with him is questionable. Treating Janet like an afterthought is another questionable choice

[newparisian]

I just find her backstory and rise through the Avengers more interesting than Black Widow's or Hawkeye's.

What is interesting about her backstory and rise?

With Clint and Nat, they were former criminals who were trying to atone by joining the Avengers. That's carried over into the MCU Nat. Is Janet's comics backstory and raison d'etre more interesting than either of those?

[chicago_bastard]

Cool.

In the comics, what is Janet's claim to fame, completely separate from Hank? She's good at fashion, I think. Not to be too nerdy, but what are her "feets"? She led the Avengers at one point, right? But so has half the MU. What drives her to be a hero? Did she acquire her powers herself? Is she like super smart or a tactical genius or good at combat? What's her personality? What are her top 5 comic stories where she drove the plot and people were like, damn, that's cool, now that's why Janet is the ****? She ever held down an ongoing or critically acclaimed run, like Fraction's Hawkeye or Rucka/Waid/Edmondson's Widow, for instance?

Honestly wondering. I haven't read much of Avengers from the 60s through the 90s, except the big stuff like Kree Skrull War and then Busiek's run.

But, but,... she's a founding member!!!!

[CosmiComic]

What is interesting about her backstory and rise?

With Clint and Nat, they were former criminals who were trying to atone by joining the Avengers. That's carried over into the MCU Nat. Is Janet's comics backstory and raison d'etre more interesting than either of those?

I mean her general story in Marvel. Basically going from the somewhat questionably depicted Silver Age female character to a more independent Bronze age character and beyond. They haven't done much with her lately, though. She's not really a favorite of mine, but I'm just speaking in comparison to Clint and Nat. I don't care much for 'super spies' and the like in Marvel, or 'bow and arrow' heroes. Admittedly, this is all subjective.

[newparisian]

I mean her general story in Marvel. Basically going from the somewhat questionably depicted Silver Age female character to a more independent Bronze age character and beyond. They haven't done much with her lately, though. She's not really a favorite of mine, but I'm just speaking in comparison to Clint and Nat. I don't care much for 'super spies' and the like in Marvel, or 'bow and arrow' heroes. Admittedly, this is all subjective.

What are some interesting stories that depict the bolded? Or just stories in general where she drove the plot?

I remember Bendis used Janet in the Microverse arc and then Hickman, Waid (he used Nadia), or Aaron haven't touched her at all. Why would you say that in the last 20 years Janet hasn't been utilized much? At least with Hank they merged him with Ultron for a bit. I guess it just goes back to my original question's intent, which is asking what does she bring to the table. In the MCU, they made her a scientist and Hank's equal, which I don't believe was ever in her comics backstory.

So other than just preference for one (Janet) and resentment for others (Nat/Clint), what is driving this? Because this is not the first "XYZ should've been in the MCU Avengers" thread I've seen, though I forget how the previous ones panned out.

So educate me here. Not just asking you only; just any Janet fan in general. Even without Clint/Nat in the picture, if you were a Marvel exec 13 years ago, why would you have put Janet on the MCU roster? How does the first Avengers movie go differently or more interestingly with Janet on the team?

[newparisian]

But, but,... she's a founding member!!!!

Pretty much.

[CosmiComic]

What are some interesting stories that depict the bolded? Or just stories in general where she drove the plot?

I remember Bendis used Janet in the Microverse arc and then Hickman, Waid (he used Nadia), or Aaron haven't touched her at all. Why would you say that in the last 20 years Janet hasn't been utilized much? At least with Hank they merged him with Ultron for a bit. I guess it just goes back to my original question's intent, which is asking what does she bring to the table. In the MCU, they made her a scientist and Hank's equal, which I don't believe was ever in her comics backstory.

So other than just preference for one (Janet) and resentment for others (Nat/Clint), what is driving this? Because this is not the first "XYZ should've been in the MCU Avengers" thread I've seen, though I forget how the previous ones panned out.

So educate me here. Not just asking you only; just any Janet fan in general. Even without Clint/Nat in the picture, if you were a Marvel exec 13 years ago, why would you have put Janet on the MCU roster? How does the first Avengers movie go differently or more interestingly with Janet on the team?

I think they didn't use her recently due to synergy. I'd say she just brings a non-scientist/warrior/government agent perspective from the other general Avengers, similar to how Scott Lang does. I actually don't mind her being made into a scientist in the MCU.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with putting Clint & Nat on the team first, except that their powers are boring (personal opinion). I'm just not big on how those two are used in the MCU, although Nat's been done way better than Clint. I think it's more fans who are used to Janet being a major Avenger are annoyed at her not being treated that way. The MCU seemed to write her off until AM&W. But the MCU in general failed their female characters during the 1st 2 phases.

[newparisian]

I think they didn't use her recently due to synergy.

Even before Disney bought Marvel, where were all the writers rushing to put Janet front and center? There was that sex scene under Johns, I guess. But if memory serves, even Busiek didn't really use her prominently. So that's a good decade before IM 1 where comics-MCU synergy shouldn't have been a problem for Marvel writers. Right?

And even after she showed up in Ant Man 2, have we seen comics projects with her in the lead, or her even on just a team? I don't think Marvel or Avengers writers care. Why not, would you say? There IS synergy now.

I think it's more fans who are used to Janet being a major Avenger are annoyed at her not being treated that way.

Yes but like, when has she ever been a "major Avenger"? Because she was there in the beginning?

But the MCU in general failed their female characters during the 1st 2 phases.

Failed in the sense that they didn't get their own movies, yes. But they weren't written badly. Whether it was Nat or Pepper or Peggy, the women were written as competent characters. Nothing like "somewhat questionably depicted Silver Age female character" type stuff, like when Reed used to be condescending towards Sue in those early FF issues because she's a woman.

[CosmiComic]

Even before Disney bought Marvel, where were all the writers rushing to put Janet front and center? There was that sex scene under Johns, I guess. But if memory serves, even Busiek didn't really use her prominently. So that's a good decade before IM 1 where comics-MCU synergy shouldn't have been a problem for Marvel writers. Right?


And even after she showed up in Ant Man 2, have we seen comics projects with her in the lead, or her even on just a team? I don't think Marvel or Avengers writers care. Why not, would you say? There IS synergy now.

I honestly don't know. Several major Avengers, like Hank Pym, Wanda Maximoff, Vision and Pietro Maximoff haven't gotten a lot of good focus during the last decade or 2, at least not as much as the big 4.

Yes but like, when has she ever been a "major Avenger"? Because she was there in the beginning?

I think it's because she's been there for so long and was a leader at one point, and has been in many spin-offs like West Coast Avengers and Uncanny Avengers. And she knows most of the other main Avengers. Basically she has a lengthy tenure.

Failed in the sense that they didn't get their own movies, yes. But they weren't written badly. Whether it was Nat or Pepper or Peggy, the women were written as competent characters. Nothing like "somewhat questionably depicted Silver Age female character" type stuff, like when Reed used to be condescending towards Sue in those early FF issues because she's a woman.

Nat wasn't well written until Winter Soldier, and then poorly written in AoU before getting back on track in Civil War. The only female character done well up to AoU was Peggy and she really only lasted up until one movie. The rest were either underwritten or forgotten. And even after that, heroines like Scarlet Witch and Hope van Dyne didn't get as much focus as the male heroes. I agree it's far better than sexist Silver Age stuff, but still not good enough. The comics at least have female Avengers interact and be friends with one another. The MCU barely has that.

[newparisian]

I honestly don't know. Several major Avengers, like Hank Pym, Wanda Maximoff, Vision and Pietro Maximoff haven't gotten a lot of good focus during the last decade or 2, at least not as much as the big 4.

Well Vision had a critically acclaimed mini by King, Pietro (for better or worse) had minis like Son of M, Wanda had the maxi by Robinson. So that's not nothing. More than what Janet's gotten.

Nat wasn't well written until Winter Soldier, and then poorly written in AoU before getting back on track in Civil War. The only female character done well up to AoU was Peggy and she really only lasted up until one movie. The rest were either underwritten or forgotten. And even after that, heroines like Scarlet Witch and Hope van Dyne didn't get as much focus as the male heroes. I agree it's far better than sexist Silver Age stuff, but still not good enough.

Nat was poorly written in Avengers 1? She single-handedly beats her captors during her intro, then gets the confession out of Loki, then she inserts the staff thing on the rooftop. In a team movie, that's not a bad showing. She was great in TWS, yes, I think because there were fewer focus characters and the movie was mostly a two-hander with her and Steve.

Wasn't Hope the co-star of AM1 and then the title co-star in AM2? Wanda was crucial in AoU and was the inciting incident in CW. So again, in team movies, that's not nothing.

In your opinion, was Nat not written well because of her flirtation with Banner in AoU and that's just not a pairing you needed to see? Otherwise, what did she do in AoU that made her badly written?

The comics at least have female Avengers interact and be friends with one another. The MCU barely has that.

Are you wanting the Avengers movies to pass the Bechdel test or something?

[chicago_bastard]

Nat wasn't well written until Winter Soldier, and then poorly written in AoU before getting back on track in Civil War. The only female character done well up to AoU was Peggy and she really only lasted up until one movie. The rest were either underwritten or forgotten. And even after that, heroines like Scarlet Witch and Hope van Dyne didn't get as much focus as the male heroes. I agree it's far better than sexist Silver Age stuff, but still not good enough. The comics at least have female Avengers interact and be friends with one another. The MCU barely has that.

Well, if you deem these things important you shouldn't oppose the BW movie as it has easily some of the best female relationships so far in the MCU.

Also Nat was written very well in The Avengers.

[Triniking1234]

Only Peggy was written well pre-AoU? RIP Nat and Pepper.