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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member danielsan52's Avatar
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    It would be cool to see who Lourdes became after this. It would be really cool if she actually ends up being an existing mutant teleporter like Fatale or Astra.
    TO KNOW HER IS TO FEAR HER: JESSICA DREW THE SPIDER-WOMAN
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  2. #62
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    Sorry if this is controversial, but this book is giving white feminism. It's also interesting that Williams got attacked for bringing in sensitive issues around sexual violence, but I haven't seen any similar criticism levied at Duggan for doing the same (though I mostly stay off social media so I might be wrong).
    No, I've seen a lot of of criticism online of Duggan's writing being, I guess you could say, #FEMINISM instead of actual feminism. Particularly because it always is centered around the white women doing meme-y girl power things. Even more so with Emma, who is white privilege incarnate and even had a big white savior moment in Madripor a few issues ago. Even here with the Hellfire brat getting development, its the blond white woman who's getting the standard 'terrible man abused me' cookie cutter story.

    Maybe this isn't the right place to ask, but over her whole history how much time has Emma been a hero vs. how much time was she a straight villain? I've always been vocal with my dislike of the character. Its always been bizarre that we get so much female empowerment moments out of her when many of her worst victims have been women she's gleefully abused and never apologized to.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Yupp.
    He will either love them for saving her and keeping her alive.
    Or...
    He will loathe them even more for not telling him she was alive all this time.

    My money's on the latter.
    Considering that he didn't really realize how he felt about her until he thought he had lost her for good I'ld say the former. Question really is, what is he going to do now that he knows? Decide to stay away from her?
    Last edited by rcaguy; 07-21-2021 at 08:52 PM.

  4. #64
    Mugga, please. xhx23x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Maybe this isn't the right place to ask, but over her whole history how much time has Emma been a hero vs. how much time was she a straight villain? I've always been vocal with my dislike of the character. Its always been bizarre that we get so much female empowerment moments out of her when many of her worst victims have been women she's gleefully abused and never apologized to.
    I believe at this point, even taking into account the sliding timescale Emma has been a hero longer than a villain, even taking into account her slip back in recent years, which I guess would add a few more months or a year more the the villain stuff. But it could be argued that is 50/50. As for the latter part of your inquiry I guess it depends. A lot of the times with characters like Emma, it's a matter of redemption vs atonement and how some times fandoms confuse these things wanting one more than the other but not getting that in the text. Emma went through a redemption arc back when she joined the X-Men (Or X-Men associated) Generation X, where she basically decided to turn a new leaf and try to work with the good guys to protect a new gen of mutants since her previous methods didn't work and actively got her students killed. While she did show remorse for some of her past actions there wasn't much apologizing going on there. She and Firestar finally had a talk, but that's as close to that we got.

    And honestly? I prefer it like that. To me is more important a character redems themselve through changing their behaviour and future actions rather than seeking to atone or forgive. That doesn't stop this from being explore further if people want, but I'm not sure it can bring proper closure or even change people's minds about Emma if you view her a certain way. I think the reason it all seems so muddled to some is that a lot of people forget the work that was put in Gen X to her character and a lot of what Marvel added to her backstory later (Particularly the abuse angle, which I don't like, but it's there so whatever) so it can make it appear as some of this to be superficial.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    He seems to have a code. I can see how a man with a code is a sweet man compared to one who will do anything to anyone.

    On an aside i also got savage avengers and i keep being hit or miss with that. Too much conan i think. Duggan needs a cast overhaul on that book but the art is so pretty.
    The main problem is that it needed to be a limited series. There's only so much that can be done with Kulan Gath,and they've passed that point.
    Last edited by rcaguy; 07-21-2021 at 09:12 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkout42 View Post
    .i mean they didn't even address the thing about Christian, the crystals or the boat.
    The thing with the crystals and the boat is being followed up on in the next issue of WOLVERINE, I believe -- based on the solicits it looks like that cliffhanger was setting up the next arc for that book.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    On an aside i also got savage avengers and i keep being hit or miss with that. Too much conan i think. Duggan needs a cast overhaul on that book but the art is so pretty.
    I wouldn't count on the "too much Conan" thing changing any time soon. The book is basically intended to be a Conan book with a revolving cast of team-up allies.

  8. #68
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xhx23x View Post
    I believe at this point, even taking into account the sliding timescale Emma has been a hero longer than a villain, even taking into account her slip back in recent years, which I guess would add a few more months or a year more the the villain stuff. But it could be argued that is 50/50. As for the latter part of your inquiry I guess it depends. A lot of the times with characters like Emma, it's a matter of redemption vs atonement and how some times fandoms confuse these things wanting one more than the other but not getting that in the text. Emma went through a redemption arc back when she joined the X-Men (Or X-Men associated) Generation X, where she basically decided to turn a new leaf and try to work with the good guys to protect a new gen of mutants since her previous methods didn't work and actively got her students killed. While she did show remorse for some of her past actions there wasn't much apologizing going on there. She and Firestar finally had a talk, but that's as close to that we got.

    And honestly? I prefer it like that. To me is more important a character redems themselve through changing their behaviour and future actions rather than seeking to atone or forgive. That doesn't stop this from being explore further if people want, but I'm not sure it can bring proper closure or even change people's minds about Emma if you view her a certain way. I think the reason it all seems so muddled to some is that a lot of people forget the work that was put in Gen X to her character and a lot of what Marvel added to her backstory later (Particularly the abuse angle, which I don't like, but it's there so whatever) so it can make it appear as some of this to be superficial.
    Thank you for the well explained answer. For me Emma was always emblematic of a lot of problems plaguing the X comics, and her redemption felt forced and unearned. The biggest problem was always that she was a rich white woman who looked like a supermodel and was being used as the leader, and voice, of an oppressed minority. Making the white people the most important, and even ONLY important, characters among the X-men has been a huge problem, and it can often leave their attempts at talking minority struggles hollow or self serving.

    To tie it back to the story, one of the common complaints is how many plot beats are used to puff Emma's character instead of really serving the plot. They don't feel thought through, and as a result can be kind of shallow. I mentioned the white savior moment in Madripoor before. the stuff with Kitty came out of nowhere with Emma and required downplaying all of Kitty's other connections and friends, while providing some weirdly juvenile lesbian teases. And even here, the problems from the Gala are framed as how they effect Emma instead of the people who actually got hurt, and the retcon with Fisk and Shaw is inserting her into a major character moment of Shaw and making it partly about Emma and making her look like a better person.

    In fairness some of these complaints are petty or a stretch, but its happened and maintained enough through Duggan's writing here that's its a problem.

  9. #69
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Thank you for the well explained answer. For me Emma was always emblematic of a lot of problems plaguing the X comics, and her redemption felt forced and unearned. The biggest problem was always that she was a rich white woman who looked like a supermodel and was being used as the leader, and voice, of an oppressed minority. Making the white people the most important, and even ONLY important, characters among the X-men has been a huge problem, and it can often leave their attempts at talking minority struggles hollow or self serving.
    Errrr how is this a prob for only Emma, and in comparison to how long her Char's been around being a Mutant leader is fairly new. And yeah the X-Men being Lily white is problematic, but I never thought they were co-opting minority struggles(too much lol) They're still a lot better in this aspect thsnn most comics. Also how deep do you you want a comic book to go? You shouldn't look to a monthly 22 pg magazine about superheroes to satisfy your every need for minority social commentary
    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    To tie it back to the story, one of the common complaints is how many plot beats are used to puff Emma's character instead of really serving the plot. They don't feel thought through, and as a result can be kind of shallow. I mentioned the white savior moment in Madripoor before. the stuff with Kitty came out of nowhere with Emma and required downplaying all of Kitty's other connections and friends, while providing some weirdly juvenile lesbian teases. And even here, the problems from the Gala are framed as how they effect Emma instead of the people who actually got hurt, and the retcon with Fisk and Shaw is inserting her into a major character moment of Shaw and making it partly about Emma and making her look like a better person.
    Sooo why does this retcon bother you?
    GrindrStone(D)

  10. #70
    Mugga, please. xhx23x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Thank you for the well explained answer. For me Emma was always emblematic of a lot of problems plaguing the X comics, and her redemption felt forced and unearned. The biggest problem was always that she was a rich white woman who looked like a supermodel and was being used as the leader, and voice, of an oppressed minority. Making the white people the most important, and even ONLY important, characters among the X-men has been a huge problem, and it can often leave their attempts at talking minority struggles hollow or self serving.

    To tie it back to the story, one of the common complaints is how many plot beats are used to puff Emma's character instead of really serving the plot. They don't feel thought through, and as a result can be kind of shallow. I mentioned the white savior moment in Madripoor before. the stuff with Kitty came out of nowhere with Emma and required downplaying all of Kitty's other connections and friends, while providing some weirdly juvenile lesbian teases. And even here, the problems from the Gala are framed as how they effect Emma instead of the people who actually got hurt, and the retcon with Fisk and Shaw is inserting her into a major character moment of Shaw and making it partly about Emma and making her look like a better person.

    In fairness some of these complaints are petty or a stretch, but its happened and maintained enough through Duggan's writing here that's its a problem.
    Oh I don't think it's petty or a stretch. Eveyone has different impressions and as long as we can discuss it without anyone attacking people's own perception. I do agree that the optics can look bad with the X-Men a lot of the time. As a latino who has darker skin I wish they weren't all so white, but I'm also in my 30s so I grew up with them, so it is kind hard to unentangled the nostalgia factor from it as well.

    As for this story and book in particular and how is handling Emma, over the others, I definitely see that it is rather in favor of her and that sucks. As an Emma fan I'm not going to lie and say I'm not enjoying most of it, since pre-Krakoa, to me Emma was either absent or misshandled (Death of X/IvX) or relegated to cameos in events for the writer to meta comment something snarky in the story, so having her be placed in positions of power and have a lot of panel time to shine is what I've been looking for, but some times the execution does indeed come off clunky. A lot of the time you stop seeing Emma and you can see is the writer patting themselves on the back for doing something they deem good. I don't view any of the actions or dialogue to be out of character, just the framing doesn't come out honest in any way.

    I do think Duggan can do better, and in some issues I feel he has, so we'll see how this goes moving forward now that most of the conflict points seem to have been set up.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex. View Post
    Yeap. I do question this too. It sems like there can't be an actual evil woman who is just... evil and like doing bad things. Everytime it needs to be justified. "She's really evil, but the circunstances made her this way" like, ugh, I'm tired of it.
    Selene says hello.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsan52 View Post
    It would be cool to see who Lourdes became after this. It would be really cool if she actually ends up being an existing mutant teleporter like Fatale or Astra.
    Whatever happened to Astra? After Magneto Not a Hero, never heard of her again.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkout42 View Post
    Let's be realistic here, Shaw has essentially been beaten, battered, mutilated and crippled after his actions were revealed against Kitty. Now he has been shown that all his actions taken after that one pivotal moment in his life were due to Frost's machinations even before Krakoa came into being. If there was ever a time for him to rebel against it all and get revenge, this would be it or he has a nervous breakdown and becomes useless.
    True, I don't know I feel like for me the story would be better served although it would be darker, to have Emma reveal that Lourdes died , but instead of the Sentinel Shaw is the one who killed her ,but Emma , made him forget and instead remember that she was killed by the Sentinel and for that reason they would not resurrect her because his violence cost her her life.Although a darker take it would serve Shaw better , but this way it seems ultra manipulative. Especially since Emma 'pimped' Lourdes to someone perhaps just as dangerous if not more. I don't think the story was well executed but maybe I'm in the minority. Now Shaw was already being a jerk , but he is now a jerk with motive.

  14. #74
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    Shouldn’t Charles know who Lourdes is, since Tessa was suppose to be his spy the whole time?

  15. #75
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    How is it that so many people can be pro Mystique and root for her against Xavier and Magneto despite all the horrible things she has done but then be against Shaw so fervently? Do people believe that Shaw is so much more awful than Mystique, that he has done far worse than she; I would say no he has not. But some want to condemn Shaw while giving Raven a free pass. So what's the difference, is it gender? Shaw is a man so he's automatically irredeemable evil while Mystique is a woman so all her crimes get whitewashed away, like Emma or Harley Quinn and Ivy over in DC. Is that fair. If the situation playing out between Shaw and Emma in Maruaders were reversed people would be screaming sexism and misogyny. It's interesting how some can overlook the misdeeds of some while staunchly condemning others as irredeemable. And usually it's the woman who gets the redemption or at the very least excuses are made for them while the men are reviled, humiliated and beaten down. Case in point the current Shaw situation. Very interesting dynamic that plays out in modern day comics.

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