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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    So... For comparison, just think of all the other attempts superhero book publishers made to modernize the genre. Are they completely honest/loyal? Why should I care for Superman's death, if I know he will get back? Why should I care for ANY superhero series, if I will never get any closure (well, except for some miniseries I guess)? Why should I care for DC turning Alan Scott into a LGBTQ character, if it sounds incredibly fake? And aren't superhero attempts at saying something about politics somehow weak or not as convincing as a 100% political OGN about Kobane could be?
    When you are working on property that you DO NOT OWN-you are at the mercy of it's OWNER.

    There is stuff Superman can NOT do that say Savage Dragon can do.
    Savage Dragon got replaced by his son in issue 193. He was killed off in issue 225 (or 250) for GOOD and now an alternate universe version is running around. DC will NOT do that with Clark Kent.

    Malcolm Dragon-has a wife, 4 kids (2 with his wife, 1 with his ex and 1 with his step sister-they all had a FOURSOME without protection), left the USA to live in Canada in response to Trump's antics and his wife-she is Asian and a sex nymphomaniac. And you get to SEE IT.

    Jon Boy Kent will NEVER do any of the above in a DC Comic.

    Static can get away with MORE stuff because he is NOT owned by DC Comics. Static's best friend got killed in his original series-Static got so mad he almost killed 15 people with NO remorse. Miles Morales, Jon Boy, Tim Drake and others could not be shown doing that.

    A gay Alan Scott or Iceman or Aqualad or Prodigy will NOT get the development and showcase like the kids in Boom Studios's The Woods, Lumberjanes, Paper Girls, Goldie Vance, Backstagers & Fence. 2 of those are books written by the current writer of Batman. Fence had a boy openly walking around dressed like a girl and another one who OPENLY slept with guys while LUSTING after the one straight black guy.
    DC nor Marvel is going to showcase that.

    Those writers can only be as honest as management allows them to be.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    I think he changed his opinion at some point. For all the "people didn't get it" excuses it is still a fact that most of his work at that time had "superheroes are stupid" undertones.
    Considering Moore went to Image Comics and asked to do Supreme the way he wants to do it, I doubt it. He even admits if he did a Batman story again, it'd be pre-O'Neil Batman. It'll be a goofy silver age-like story. Did Moore feel superhero stories were stupid at the time? Probably. Did he think superheroes are stupid? No. You should read the article his daughter did.
    Last edited by DABellWrites; 07-26-2021 at 09:48 PM.

  3. #48
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    And aren't superhero attempts at saying something about politics somehow weak or not as convincing as a 100% political OGN about Kobane could be?
    a story by definition is a lie.It can contain truths of individual under the mask or glasses if i may.But,it is ultimately a manufactured lie.That's why it's a narrative.Now,it depends on the audience.People many a times aren't overtly political and would probably shy away from directly engaging it(that's good I believe.because politics is built around friend/enemy distinction.It's always polarising.rarely something that unites).For them allegorical tales can be engaging and entertaining as well..it depends on the sophistication regardless.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-26-2021 at 10:12 PM.
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  4. #49
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    Considering Moore went to Image Comics and asked to do Supreme the way he wants to do it, I doubt it. He even admits if he did a Batman story again, it'd be pre-O'Neil Batman. It'll be a goofy silver age-like story. Did Moore feel superhero stories were stupid at the time? Probably. Did he think superheroes are stupid? No. You should read the article his daughter did.
    I feel like there was some misunderstanding. I wanted to say that Moore, after leaving DC, changed his opinion about superheroes and thats why his later work like Supreme or Tom Strong or his thoughts about superheroes in general are different than what he did for DC.

  5. #50

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    Pretty impressive considering they're 6 decades apart.
    december 21st has passed where are my superpowers?

  6. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    American comics isn't about storytelling.it's about ips,franchises...etc what people like is a good story with a start,middle and en end..American superhero comics wants both serialized and episodic storytelling..that has problems.the middle road btw tom&jerry and game of thrones leads to spikes in sales with each status quo change.But that's it..American superhero comics is just never-ending soap opera.
    I think new characters like Jon Kent, Yara Flor, and Damian Wayne have a good chance of gaining the same consistent following that manga series have if they don't mess it up with too many retcons or bad runs. They even fit in the same audience as Naruto, Sailor Moon, One Piece etc.
    december 21st has passed where are my superpowers?

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    That's not antithetical.That's merely mirroring siegel's original story that was "superman's return to krypton" (lyla being superman's perfect match) and channeling the immigrant experience of those who lost their home and yearn for it at some deep level.He was merely channeling Siegel,shuster,Mort Weisinger..etc. i believe
    That's fair, although this didn't click for me. I can't imagine Clark, having only ever known the Kents and Earth, yearning most deeply to have lived his life on Krypton.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    If you want to read about comic books, I strongly suggest this: https://www.amazon.com/Eisner-Miller.../dp/1569717559
    and this
    https://www.amazon.com/Marvel-Comics...7134822&sr=8-1

    As for what you wrote... At this point it would probably be easier to say what ISN'T a problem with superhero books today. The publishers are basically relying on the loyalty of longtime readers. But - even without taking into account the bad gimmicks, the high prices, the repetitive storylines - the point is the format itself. Superhero books have become the niche, which means that all the neverending debates about Wally West vs Barry Allen, the no killing rule, Superman's trunks and whether they should kill Lois Lane are completely, 100% meaningless and irrelevant once you take one step outside the niche. The only people who care about this stuff are longtime fans lost in self-referential, nerdish discussions, and they are basically the only ones who buy the books on regular terms. Once those fans will be too old or uninterested to keep the ship afloat, DC and Marvel will become more or less like Valiant is today, or maybe even smaller.

    The point - as always - is what you give to the readers, how loyal/honest the creators and the publishers are towards their mission. One example: Attack on Titan gives the readers an excellent and complex worldbuilding, relatable characters, a compelling storyline which goes towards a specific direction so you feel encouraged to keep reading because you will get closure sooner or later. Not a masterpiece IMHO, but very clear and successful in what it's trying to achieve. Another example: French illustrator Moebius was probably in the top 10 best artists ever. Artistically speaking, he was a monster; even if he died in 2012 he keeps having a huge influence on all kind of comic books and movies (a recent Ridley Scott commercial is clearly inspired by Moebius: https://youtu.be/Y1ruuTs134k. Of course, it's a completely different kind of comic books from manga or superheroes and it is possible that if you have read Batman for your entire life you won't understand what the heck stuff such as L'Incal - Moebius' most widely known work - is about. But it is somehow irrelevant, because the dreamlike atmosphere of his comic books - often written together with Jodorowsky - is so strong that it's hard not to get lost in it. So you read Moebius' stories just to get a taste of their alienness and atmosphere.

    Let me give you one last example - this time one which I feel very close. I will give you a list of some of the most successful creators/comic books in my country (Italy) - this stuff sells hundreds of thousands of copies every time a new book is out:
    1- Writer/artist Zerocalcare: in its most successful books, he basically creates graphic journalism from war zones (Kobane etc.), very politically oriented. https://www.fumettologica.it/wp-cont...erocalcare.jpg.
    2- Writer/artist Fumettibrutti: the creator is trasgender and some of her works are basically underground comic books with strongly erotic content, focused on LGBTQ+ teens https://thevision.com/wp-content/upl...ato-repost.png
    3- Writer/artist Sio: surreal, silly-beyond-belief comic strips for kids, originally created for the web: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmZg5wHXsAAD1mG.jpg
    4- Classic character Tex: a western comic book which have been published non-stop for 80 years, monthly 100-page issues for 4 euros https://shop.sergiobonelli.it/resize...?1559556763000
    Besides that, there are, of course, tons of other books, including mangas (strong sellers among teenagers) and Marvel/DC. And European graphic novels, of course.

    Please note that I don't want necessarily to imply that the titles above are examples of what comic books SHOULD be, because I have a few criticisms about all of them - and I also think that there are healthier markets out there, including France. But the point is - if a reader buys any of the bestsellers above, he/she knows what they are getting - at a VERY reasonable price. If you get Tex, you get old-style adventures, cowboys and horses - basically, you get entertainment. If you want to read about LGBTQ or getting involved in political stuff you get Fumettibrutti or Zerocalcare. And if you want silly, silly fun, you get Sio. And of course, you have other choices - including mangas.

    So... For comparison, just think of all the other attempts superhero book publishers made to modernize the genre. Are they completely honest/loyal? Why should I care for Superman's death, if I know he will get back? Why should I care for ANY superhero series, if I will never get any closure (well, except for some miniseries I guess)? Why should I care for DC turning Alan Scott into a LGBTQ character, if it sounds incredibly fake? And aren't superhero attempts at saying something about politics somehow weak or not as convincing as a 100% political OGN about Kobane could be?
    There seems to me to be too much corporate/editorial interference where it doesn't belong. I'll definitely pick up that Eisner/Miller book, that looks really interesting.

    I've got a few Moebius books, I haven't gotten to them yet. I work too much, I need more time.

    I generally really dislike politics in comics (and what I mean by that might not be what others do) because it always just seems like the writer speaking through the characters and not the characters actually speaking. The nuance necessary either isn't possible or is simply absent, and that could be due to the creative property or the writer or both.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    I think new characters like Jon Kent, Yara Flor, and Damian Wayne have a good chance of gaining the same consistent following that manga series have if they don't mess it up with too many retcons or bad runs. They even fit in the same audience as Naruto, Sailor Moon, One Piece etc.
    I don't know, I'm not sure that those characters have the same appeal as Naruto, Sailor Moon, One Piece - the former stand on the shoulders of established characters.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  10. #55
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    That's fair, although this didn't click for me. I can't imagine Clark, having only ever known the Kents and Earth, yearning most deeply to have lived his life on Krypton.
    That's postcrisis superman ergo clark kent..Silverage superman was kal el.. goldenage superman was superman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I don't know, I'm not sure that those characters have the same appeal as Naruto, Sailor Moon, One Piece - the former stand on the shoulders of established characters.
    Actually,these stand on the shoulders of dragon ball beyond that the legend of the monkey king..
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-27-2021 at 11:02 PM.
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  11. #56
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    Has the west produced anyone on the level of Kentaro Miura in the last 30 years? Like a single person?
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    Has the west produced anyone on the level of Kentaro Miura in the last 30 years? Like a single person?
    Plenty. They just aren't necessarily known for their Big 2 work.

  13. #58
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    Manga is generally of a higher quality than Big 2 books, but a huge factor in my shift to reading more manga than western stuff has been cost/accessibility.

    I recently got a subscription to Shonen Jump online, for 1.50 a month. You couldn't get an issue of Justice League for that from comixology, but I have access to 100 chapters a day of manga. Even when I bought SJ in print while at uni, it was 5 for one volume, about 400 pages of story plus features. I'd maybe have gotten two 28 page Marvel or DC books for that if I was lucky.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    That's postcrisis superman ergo clark kent..Silverage superman was kal el.. goldenage superman was superman.


    Actually,these stand on the shoulders of dragon ball beyond that the legend of the monkey king..
    I suppose that era distinction isn't as important to me, I'll reread the story with that in mind.

    I didn't mean that Naruto and the others didn't have forefathers, but they don't stand on Dragon Ball in the same way that Jon stands on Clark or Yara stands on Wonder Woman.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by greatmetropolitan View Post
    Manga is generally of a higher quality than Big 2 books, but a huge factor in my shift to reading more manga than western stuff has been cost/accessibility.

    I recently got a subscription to Shonen Jump online, for 1.50 a month. You couldn't get an issue of Justice League for that from comixology, but I have access to 100 chapters a day of manga. Even when I bought SJ in print while at uni, it was 5 for one volume, about 400 pages of story plus features. I'd maybe have gotten two 28 page Marvel or DC books for that if I was lucky.
    Yeah, format is definitely a factor
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

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