One Piece is now the 2nd highest selling ongoing comic series behind Superman

[Gaius]

Okay, first question: Where did his rocket land if the planet is all water?

It will hit some form of ground eventually, water or not.

[manwhohaseverything]

Mangaka across the board need help and a union to improve the state they work in. Oda is prolific, but the conditions those creators work in are cruel to be polite and obscene if I'm being honest.

I feel the product will improve drastically if they went biweekly or monthly. Pacing would, if nothing else, and the creators might actually be able to have time to spend with loved ones or indulging in a hobby.

There are those monthly manga's as well.To be fair they writers do take hiatus's.it's just the business model and competition is brutal if you decide to go for the weekly shonen rat race..But,overall yeah!A worker union would be great.Get better environment..

[Robanker]

There are those monthly manga's as well.To be fair they writers do take hiatus's.it's just the business model and competition is brutal if you decide to go for the weekly shonen rat race..But,overall yeah!A worker union would be great.Get better environment..

For real. It becomes hard for me to enjoy some manga when I know the creator is basically enslaving themselves to continue making it.

[manwhohaseverything]

For real. It becomes hard for me to enjoy some manga when I know the creator is basically enslaving themselves to continue making it.

On the flipside,creators have a lot of clout about their properties and a huge say in what goes/what not.I believe,they do get their fame, recognition and money..with american comics industry it rarely happens that way...i find it good that fans value the author enough to say "this is canon" and we value this voice.which also pushes the company to have authors be more involved.

[Myskin]

All I can really say about the rest of your points (very well put by the way)

Thanks.

is that I wasn't focusing solely on the improvement of superhero books. I mean, comics were a big cultural thing here, and they've just declined across the board haven't they? Meanwhile, as you said, manga about cooking, sports, mundane things, are popular and sell well in Japan. Manga (and European comics if I'm not mistaken) are in better shape and I wish we could replicate that here.

If you want to get a good idea of how stuff went downhill, look no further than Alan Moore's The First American, a satyrical take on superheroes whose stories were included in Tomorrow Stories. There is one episode in which the main character - an idiotic superhero - gets so many variations on his origin that he doesn't understand what he should be anymore. Sounds familiar? In another, Christmas Carol-like story, the character sees the comic book futures of the past, present and future and finds out in that San Diego Comicon has become a ruin in a Planet-of-the-Apes apocalyptic future because no one cares about superhero books anymore.

I said it above - the companies simply stopped believing in comic books years ago. Personally speaking, as I have often said, I see the late 1980s as the key moment in which everything could change but didn't. In the eighties DC couldn't propose - just an example - the same take on Superman they had followed in the 1950s, because after the introduction of EC Comics and Marvel books, the past approach was just too naive and unsophisticated to attract readers. And Marvel wanted to evolve too. So they (both Marvel and DC) started a restructuring of their properties and they got this wave of incredibly talented people, guys like Miller, Moore, Gerber, Mazzuchelli, DeMatteis, Sienkiewicz etc. That is, writers/artists interested in renovating the old properties but with a fresher take, in many cases influenced by a more artistic approach inspired by European influential titles (for example BD magazines such as Métal Hurlant or À suivre) and creators (Moebius, Philippe Druillet, Enki Bilal, Sergio Toppi, Hugo Pratt, Manara etc: just check them on Google Images to see what I mean). Readers tend to underestimate how important the mere fact that David Mazzucchelli drew Batman is.

So basically you had this moment in which a lot of things could come from this new approach. They could have created an entire new, thought-provoking take on superheroes (which, I guess, was what Moore aimed for - just check Swamp Thing) or they could have started to differentiate their production and maybe even overtaken the superhero genre. I mean, it's not that we need superheroes. We are in the realm of speculation, but I have no problem in imagining a completely different American market dominated by completely different comic books and in which superheroes are just a thing of the past. I mean, don't Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers belong to a past era too? And in the 1980s manga had already shown that comics could be used for completely different themes as well. We already had incredibly powerful stuff such as Lone Wolf and Cub or Akira, which clearly showed that comic books weren't necessarily about guys in pyjamas wrestling in the street.

What DC and Marvel should have done was to be more respectful towards their readers, their creators and comic books as a medium. I'd say that the day decided to publish the first variant cover marked the end of it all, because from that moment on the companies used the comic books as an excuse for something else and to get easy money from cheap toys, cheap gadgets, movies and videogames. So they focused less and less on what they could achieve exclusively in the pages of a book. I mean, check Jack Kirby's designs and landscapes. Aren't they incredible? And it's something you can get only in comics. Once you make a live-action adaptation and you start showing that those costumes are made of kevlar or rubber or whatever you are not really doing justice to the sense of wonder of the original take.

Someone could argue that the new line of DC books for young adults is a step in the right direction, but personally speaking I doubt it. I don't have much faith in these books influenced by young adult novels and manga, even if I can appreciate the effort behind it. I mean, I guess that someone may even buy them, but IMHO it's not nearly enough to make the superhero genre popular again. For the most part they just reiterate classic superhero tropes. Of course, they are simpler, more straightforward, sometimes they try to deal with more serious problems than just punching each other, but all in all - they are just superheroes. Just to give you an example, if I was 13, and I was interested in shōjo-like atmosphere, why should I read a shōjo superhero book? I'd go straight for a shōjo manga, and I could buy a 200-page book (potentially a GOOD book) at a relatively low price.

Just to be clear, it's not that there are no good American comic books at all, because once you abandon the superhero tropes you have plenty of exceptionally well-written and well-drawn works - from classic underground creators such as Robert Crumb to modern classics like Chris Ware or rising stars like Emil Ferris. Of course, they are not mainstream but that doesn't mean that they are not culturally relevant - I mean, Crumb himself was more relevant for comics worldwide than all DC books put together in the latest, I don't know, 25 years? But if it is mainstream you are looking for, that is all-American works which are culturally relevant and teenagers can buy and which may have a significant impact on mainstream culture, don't hold your breath. IMHO it may happen only when DC and Marvel books have become irrelevant and a someone else sees comic books as something artistically relevant and potentially remunerative, and it must be someone with enough power and initiative to impose a model different from the classic 28-page book at 4 dollars or above.

[Hizashi]

Thanks.

If you want to get a good idea of how stuff went downhill, look no further than Alan Moore's The First American, a satyrical take on superheroes whose stories were included in Tomorrow Stories. There is one episode in which the main character - an idiotic superhero - gets so many variations on his origin that he doesn't understand what he should be anymore. Sounds familiar? In another, Christmas Carol-like story, the character sees the comic book futures of the past, present and future and finds out in that San Diego Comicon has become a ruin in a Planet-of-the-Apes apocalyptic future because no one cares about superhero books anymore.

I said it above - the companies simply stopped believing in comic books years ago. Personally speaking, as I have often said, I see the late 1980s as the key moment in which everything could change but didn't. In the eighties DC couldn't propose - just an example - the same take on Superman they had followed in the 1950s, because after the introduction of EC Comics and Marvel books, the past approach was just too naive and unsophisticated to attract readers. And Marvel wanted to evolve too. So they (both Marvel and DC) started a restructuring of their properties and they got this wave of incredibly talented people, guys like Miller, Moore, Gerber, Mazzuchelli, DeMatteis, Sienkiewicz etc. That is, writers/artists interested in renovating the old properties but with a fresher take, in many cases influenced by a more artistic approach inspired by European influential titles (for example BD magazines such as Métal Hurlant or À suivre) and creators (Moebius, Philippe Druillet, Enki Bilal, Sergio Toppi, Hugo Pratt, Manara etc: just check them on Google Images to see what I mean). Readers tend to underestimate how important the mere fact that David Mazzucchelli drew Batman is.

So basically you had this moment in which a lot of things could come from this new approach. They could have created an entire new, thought-provoking take on superheroes (which, I guess, was what Moore aimed for - just check Swamp Thing) or they could have started to differentiate their production and maybe even overtaken the superhero genre. I mean, it's not that we need superheroes. We are in the realm of speculation, but I have no problem in imagining a completely different American market dominated by completely different comic books and in which superheroes are just a thing of the past. I mean, don't Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers belong to a past era too? And in the 1980s manga had already shown that comics could be used for completely different themes as well. We already had incredibly powerful stuff such as Lone Wolf and Cub or Akira, which clearly showed that comic books weren't necessarily about guys in pyjamas wrestling in the street.

What DC and Marvel should have done was to be more respectful towards their readers, their creators and comic books as a medium. I'd say that the day decided to publish the first variant cover marked the end of it all, because from that moment on the companies used the comic books as an excuse for something else and to get easy money from cheap toys, cheap gadgets, movies and videogames. So they focused less and less on what they could achieve exclusively in the pages of a book. I mean, check Jack Kirby's designs and landscapes. Aren't they incredible? And it's something you can get only in comics. Once you make a live-action adaptation and you start showing that those costumes are made of kevlar or rubber or whatever you are not really doing justice to the sense of wonder of the original take.

Someone could argue that the new line of DC books for young adults is a step in the right direction, but personally speaking I doubt it. I don't have much faith in these books influenced by young adult novels and manga, even if I can appreciate the effort behind it. I mean, I guess that someone may even buy them, but IMHO it's not nearly enough to make the superhero genre popular again. For the most part they just reiterate classic superhero tropes. Of course, they are simpler, more straightforward, sometimes they try to deal with more serious problems than just punching each other, but all in all - they are just superheroes. Just to give you an example, if I was 13, and I was interested in shōjo-like atmosphere, why should I read a shōjo superhero book? I'd go straight for a shōjo manga, and I could buy a 200-page book (potentially a GOOD book) at a relatively low price.

Just to be clear, it's not that there are no good American comic books at all, because once you abandon the superhero tropes you have plenty of exceptionally well-written and well-drawn works - from classic underground creators such as Robert Crumb to modern classics like Chris Ware or rising stars like Emil Ferris. Of course, they are not mainstream but that doesn't mean that they are not culturally relevant - I mean, Crumb himself was more relevant for comics worldwide than all DC books put together in the latest, I don't know, 25 years? But if it is mainstream you are looking for, that is all-American works which are culturally relevant and teenagers can buy and which may have a significant impact on mainstream culture, don't hold your breath. IMHO it may happen only when DC and Marvel books have become irrelevant and a someone else sees comic books as something artistically relevant and potentially remunerative, and it must be someone with enough power and initiative to impose a model different from the classic 28-page book at 4 dollars or above.

I think you're spot-on about the variant covers.

I recently read Kirby: King of Comics by Mark Evanier and The Ten-Cent Plague by David Hajdu and I've got Superman by Larry Tye on the list; I'll put The First American on the viewing/reading list, I love learning about comics.

If I had to name the biggest problems with how comics are made today, I'd say overall quality (how much is creative versus editorial I don't know), gimmicks, and format are what's killing them. DC and Marvel should pare down the number of total books they're publishing, for starters.

[Myskin]

If I had to name the biggest problems with how comics are made today, I'd say overall quality (how much is creative versus editorial I don't know), gimmicks, and format are what's killing them. DC and Marvel should pare down the number of total books they're publishing, for starters.

If you want to read about comic books, I strongly suggest this: https://www.amazon.com/Eisner-Miller.../dp/1569717559
and this
https://www.amazon.com/Marvel-Comics...7134822&sr=8-1

As for what you wrote... At this point it would probably be easier to say what ISN'T a problem with superhero books today. The publishers are basically relying on the loyalty of longtime readers. But - even without taking into account the bad gimmicks, the high prices, the repetitive storylines - the point is the format itself. Superhero books have become the niche, which means that all the neverending debates about Wally West vs Barry Allen, the no killing rule, Superman's trunks and whether they should kill Lois Lane are completely, 100% meaningless and irrelevant once you take one step outside the niche. The only people who care about this stuff are longtime fans lost in self-referential, nerdish discussions, and they are basically the only ones who buy the books on regular terms. Once those fans will be too old or uninterested to keep the ship afloat, DC and Marvel will become more or less like Valiant is today, or maybe even smaller.

The point - as always - is what you give to the readers, how loyal/honest the creators and the publishers are towards their mission. One example: Attack on Titan gives the readers an excellent and complex worldbuilding, relatable characters, a compelling storyline which goes towards a specific direction so you feel encouraged to keep reading because you will get closure sooner or later. Not a masterpiece IMHO, but very clear and successful in what it's trying to achieve. Another example: French illustrator Moebius was probably in the top 10 best artists ever. Artistically speaking, he was a monster; even if he died in 2012 he keeps having a huge influence on all kind of comic books and movies (a recent Ridley Scott commercial is clearly inspired by Moebius: https://youtu.be/Y1ruuTs134k. Of course, it's a completely different kind of comic books from manga or superheroes and it is possible that if you have read Batman for your entire life you won't understand what the heck stuff such as L'Incal - Moebius' most widely known work - is about. But it is somehow irrelevant, because the dreamlike atmosphere of his comic books - often written together with Jodorowsky - is so strong that it's hard not to get lost in it. So you read Moebius' stories just to get a taste of their alienness and atmosphere.

Let me give you one last example - this time one which I feel very close. I will give you a list of some of the most successful creators/comic books in my country (Italy) - this stuff sells hundreds of thousands of copies every time a new book is out:
1- Writer/artist Zerocalcare: in its most successful books, he basically creates graphic journalism from war zones (Kobane etc.), very politically oriented. https://www.fumettologica.it/wp-cont...erocalcare.jpg.
2- Writer/artist Fumettibrutti: the creator is trasgender and some of her works are basically underground comic books with strongly erotic content, focused on LGBTQ+ teens https://thevision.com/wp-content/upl...ato-repost.png
3- Writer/artist Sio: surreal, silly-beyond-belief comic strips for kids, originally created for the web: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmZg5wHXsAAD1mG.jpg
4- Classic character Tex: a western comic book which have been published non-stop for 80 years, monthly 100-page issues for 4 euros https://shop.sergiobonelli.it/resize...?1559556763000
Besides that, there are, of course, tons of other books, including mangas (strong sellers among teenagers) and Marvel/DC. And European graphic novels, of course.

Please note that I don't want necessarily to imply that the titles above are examples of what comic books SHOULD be, because I have a few criticisms about all of them - and I also think that there are healthier markets out there, including France. But the point is - if a reader buys any of the bestsellers above, he/she knows what they are getting - at a VERY reasonable price. If you get Tex, you get old-style adventures, cowboys and horses - basically, you get entertainment. If you want to read about LGBTQ or getting involved in political stuff you get Fumettibrutti or Zerocalcare. And if you want silly, silly fun, you get Sio. And of course, you have other choices - including mangas.

So... For comparison, just think of all the other attempts superhero book publishers made to modernize the genre. Are they completely honest/loyal? Why should I care for Superman's death, if I know he will get back? Why should I care for ANY superhero series, if I will never get any closure (well, except for some miniseries I guess)? Why should I care for DC turning Alan Scott into a LGBTQ character, if it sounds incredibly fake? And aren't superhero attempts at saying something about politics somehow weak or not as convincing as a 100% political OGN about Kobane could be?

[DABellWrites]

Thanks.

If you want to get a good idea of how stuff went downhill, look no further than Alan Moore's The First American, a satyrical take on superheroes whose stories were included in Tomorrow Stories. There is one episode in which the main character - an idiotic superhero - gets so many variations on his origin that he doesn't understand what he should be anymore. Sounds familiar? In another, Christmas Carol-like story, the character sees the comic book futures of the past, present and future and finds out in that San Diego Comicon has become a ruin in a Planet-of-the-Apes apocalyptic future because no one cares about superhero books anymore.

I said it above - the companies simply stopped believing in comic books years ago. Personally speaking, as I have often said, I see the late 1980s as the key moment in which everything could change but didn't. In the eighties DC couldn't propose - just an example - the same take on Superman they had followed in the 1950s, because after the introduction of EC Comics and Marvel books, the past approach was just too naive and unsophisticated to attract readers. And Marvel wanted to evolve too. So they (both Marvel and DC) started a restructuring of their properties and they got this wave of incredibly talented people, guys like Miller, Moore, Gerber, Mazzuchelli, DeMatteis, Sienkiewicz etc. That is, writers/artists interested in renovating the old properties but with a fresher take, in many cases influenced by a more artistic approach inspired by European influential titles (for example BD magazines such as Métal Hurlant or À suivre) and creators (Moebius, Philippe Druillet, Enki Bilal, Sergio Toppi, Hugo Pratt, Manara etc: just check them on Google Images to see what I mean). Readers tend to underestimate how important the mere fact that David Mazzucchelli drew Batman is.

So basically you had this moment in which a lot of things could come from this new approach. They could have created an entire new, thought-provoking take on superheroes (which, I guess, was what Moore aimed for - just check Swamp Thing) or they could have started to differentiate their production and maybe even overtaken the superhero genre. I mean, it's not that we need superheroes. We are in the realm of speculation, but I have no problem in imagining a completely different American market dominated by completely different comic books and in which superheroes are just a thing of the past. I mean, don't Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers belong to a past era too? And in the 1980s manga had already shown that comics could be used for completely different themes as well. We already had incredibly powerful stuff such as Lone Wolf and Cub or Akira, which clearly showed that comic books weren't necessarily about guys in pyjamas wrestling in the street.

What DC and Marvel should have done was to be more respectful towards their readers, their creators and comic books as a medium. I'd say that the day decided to publish the first variant cover marked the end of it all, because from that moment on the companies used the comic books as an excuse for something else and to get easy money from cheap toys, cheap gadgets, movies and videogames. So they focused less and less on what they could achieve exclusively in the pages of a book. I mean, check Jack Kirby's designs and landscapes. Aren't they incredible? And it's something you can get only in comics. Once you make a live-action adaptation and you start showing that those costumes are made of kevlar or rubber or whatever you are not really doing justice to the sense of wonder of the original take.

Someone could argue that the new line of DC books for young adults is a step in the right direction, but personally speaking I doubt it. I don't have much faith in these books influenced by young adult novels and manga, even if I can appreciate the effort behind it. I mean, I guess that someone may even buy them, but IMHO it's not nearly enough to make the superhero genre popular again. For the most part they just reiterate classic superhero tropes. Of course, they are simpler, more straightforward, sometimes they try to deal with more serious problems than just punching each other, but all in all - they are just superheroes. Just to give you an example, if I was 13, and I was interested in shōjo-like atmosphere, why should I read a shōjo superhero book? I'd go straight for a shōjo manga, and I could buy a 200-page book (potentially a GOOD book) at a relatively low price.

Just to be clear, it's not that there are no good American comic books at all, because once you abandon the superhero tropes you have plenty of exceptionally well-written and well-drawn works - from classic underground creators such as Robert Crumb to modern classics like Chris Ware or rising stars like Emil Ferris. Of course, they are not mainstream but that doesn't mean that they are not culturally relevant - I mean, Crumb himself was more relevant for comics worldwide than all DC books put together in the latest, I don't know, 25 years? But if it is mainstream you are looking for, that is all-American works which are culturally relevant and teenagers can buy and which may have a significant impact on mainstream culture, don't hold your breath. IMHO it may happen only when DC and Marvel books have become irrelevant and a someone else sees comic books as something artistically relevant and potentially remunerative, and it must be someone with enough power and initiative to impose a model different from the classic 28-page book at 4 dollars or above.

I'll also add to your idea that DC/Marvel had creative minds who cared. Writers like Alan Moore, Jack Kirby, William Marston, Kurt Busiek, Otto Binder, Gardner Fox, Frank Miller, and many more; have showed us the potential of the superhero genre. You can write good stories with people running around wearing colorful, stupid, tights. But, DC/Marvel are stuck in an age old predicament; profit over art.

[Myskin]

I'll also add to your idea that DC/Marvel had creative minds who cared. Writers like Alan Moore, Jack Kirby, William Marston, Kurt Busiek, Otto Binder, Gardner Fox, Frank Miller, and many more; have showed us the potential of the superhero genre. You can write good stories with people running around wearing colorful, stupid, tights. But, DC/Marvel are stuck in an age predicament, profit over art.

I agree. And I am quite sure that if people like Alan Moore had received more creative freedom and a fair treatment from DC or Marvel in the last 30 years superheroes would be in a way better situation right now.
A couple of confirmations...
https://www.cbr.com/alan-moore-leah-...hero-aversion/
https://www.cbr.com/alan-moore-leah-...ment-industry/

[DABellWrites]

I agree. And I am quite sure that if people like Alan Moore had received more creative freedom and a fair treatment from DC or Marvel in the last 30 years superheroes would be in a way better situation right now.
A couple of confirmations...
https://www.cbr.com/alan-moore-leah-...hero-aversion/
https://www.cbr.com/alan-moore-leah-...ment-industry/

I came to this conclusion when I read why Moore wrote Watchmen then learned he spent time on Supreme and Tom Strong. Moore never hated the genre, he loved it. So much that he wanted to elevate it. But, writers who didn't get it went for dark and grim without substance. I don't blame Moore for what happened, neither Frank Miller. I blame an industry that wasn't ready for those works.
I agree, the superhero genre would be at a better place if writers had more freedom to explore these characters.

[HsssH]

I think he changed his opinion at some point. For all the "people didn't get it" excuses it is still a fact that most of his work at that time had "superheroes are stupid" undertones.

[manwhohaseverything]

I think he changed his opinion at some point. For all the "people didn't get it" excuses it is still a fact that most of his work at that time had "superheroes are stupid" undertones.

I don't think there was any in "for the man who has everything".by the time "whatever happened to the man of tomorrow" hit alan moore started feeling superheroes are overrated.I might be wrong.

[Hizashi]

I don't think there was any in "for the man who has everything".by the time "whatever happened to the man of tomorrow" hit alan moore started feeling superheroes are overrated.I might be wrong.

I think HsssH is right, even about that story; "For The Man Who Has Everything" shows us a Superman who's greatest desire is to have never been sent to Earth, that's is antithetical to Superman in my opinion. Maybe not "stupid" but it wasn't right either.

[manwhohaseverything]

I think HsssH is right, even about that story; "For The Man Who Has Everything" shows us a Superman who's greatest desire is to have never been sent to Earth, that's is antithetical to Superman in my opinion. Maybe not "stupid" but it wasn't right either.

That's not antithetical.That's merely mirroring siegel's original story that was "superman's return to krypton" (lyla being superman's perfect match) and channeling the immigrant experience of those who lost their home and yearn for it at some deep level.He was merely channeling Siegel,shuster,Mort Weisinger..etc. i believe

[Quinlan58]

Yep, I don't get the impression he found superheroes stupid in those stories. If anything, I got the impression he wanted to tell other types of stories with them, rooted in what had already been done with them. Just because he wasn't interested in telling the archetypal superhero stories doesn't mean he was uninterested in superheroes in general.