DC sales

[Shimbo]

Let me use a different example then, Wonder Woman fighting Nazis. Honestly, ALL of Golden Age Wonder Woman would be deemed "too political" or "a creator using character's to espouse his own worldview". Yet her modern day comics are usually bereft off all that "politics".

People want escapism in their comics, sure, but don't act like politics and identity and gender issues haven't been a part of comics DNA from its inception. Some writers are better than others so some seem preachy whereas others don't, but the people that claim something is "preachy" usually just have an issue with that particular viewpoint. If it espoused something more akin to their own viewpoint though, those same people say nothing.

Funny, that.

[FFJamie94]

I both agree and disagree with you. I do think the modern creators are more "in your face" about the politics than in the past, probably as a result of their anger over the 2016 election. The "Captain America punching Hitler" example is overused and isn't persuasive to me because that's exactly what I'd expect war-time comics to look like.

Where we agree is that comics have always had a left-wing lean (although subtler in the past, from my perspective), which makes sense because most creators are left-wing, including almost all of my favorites. If I had decided to not ever read a comic from a left-wing creator, then I'd probably lose 95% of all comics, haha. Luckily I enjoy the medium and am open-minded enough not to care when I see left-wing things show up in comics, as long as (1) The characters stay true to themselves and you don't lose their voice as they become a mouthpiece for the creator's views, and (2) everything is organic to the story and the franchise.

Fair, I'll use a different example and that's Black Panther Vs the KKK.
Heck, Moore himself is known for this as V for Vendetta was a comment on Thatcher.

I think the issue is, comics are inherently a right wing fantasy. The right wing way of viewing things is "Justice needs to be served". So you get a character like Captain America, who sees justice needs to be served and so he serves that justice. It's why The Punisher is so popular with the police force, to them, he represents that they can serve justice no matter what. He sees a crime being committed and no matter what, that criminal needs to be punished. Yet, a lot of writers (not all) are written from a left wing perspective. So a character like Captain America is repurposed as a focal point of showcasing the problems in American society.

Cap is actually an interesting example as during the 50's, he was written as someone who'll take down Communists. I see this as no different to the situation today with the rise of the far right and Trump.

Comics have always tackled political and societal issues, it's able to confront these issues quickly. They've also always been very obvious with them. In many regards, the comics haven't changed, we have. We've grown and become more aware of the politics of today. We go back and say "This was subtle" but they really weren't. We think they were subtle because that's how we remember them. We remember those stories but we don't remember the World.

[hairys]

Fair, I'll use a different example and that's Black Panther Vs the KKK.
Heck, Moore himself is known for this as V for Vendetta was a comment on Thatcher.

I think the issue is, comics are inherently a right wing fantasy. The right wing way of viewing things is "Justice needs to be served". So you get a character like Captain America, who sees justice needs to be served and so he serves that justice. It's why The Punisher is so popular with the police force, to them, he represents that they can serve justice no matter what. He sees a crime being committed and no matter what, that criminal needs to be punished. Yet, a lot of writers (not all) are written from a left wing perspective. So a character like Captain America is repurposed as a focal point of showcasing the problems in American society.

Cap is actually an interesting example as during the 50's, he was written as someone who'll take down Communists. I see this as no different to the situation today with the rise of the far right and Trump.

Comics have always tackled political and societal issues, it's able to confront these issues quickly. They've also always been very obvious with them. In many regards, the comics haven't changed, we have. We've grown and become more aware of the politics of today. We go back and say "This was subtle" but they really weren't. We think they were subtle because that's how we remember them. We remember those stories but we don't remember the World.

Yeah, we can agree to disagree. We can always point to this example here or this example there that represents an extraordinary or unique case (like war-time comics, which I'm not sure I'd even consider partisan-political but rather patriotic and even an attempt at unifying the political spectrum under the flag), but I'm talking about the median experience of the comic book reader. I believe the median comic book now is a bit more political and a bit more in-your-face about things than in the past, and furthermore, I believe the mostly left-wing comic creators of the 50s and 60s would disagree with some planks of the "social justice" ideology these days. Many of them might even be considered by the left to be right-wing today.

But, as I mentioned way above, I don't consider SJW-ism to be in my top 5 reasons for the struggles of the industry.

[FFJamie94]

Yeah, we can agree to disagree. We can always point to this example here or this example there that represents an extraordinary or unique case (like war-time comics, which I'm not sure I'd even consider partisan-political but rather patriotic and even an attempt at unifying the political spectrum under the flag), but I'm talking about the median experience of the comic book reader. I believe the median comic book now is a bit more political and a bit more in-your-face about things than in the past, and furthermore, I believe the mostly left-wing comic creators of the 50s and 60s would disagree with some planks of the "social justice" ideology these days. Many of them might even be considered by the left to be right-wing today.

But, as I mentioned way above, I don't consider SJW-ism to be in my top 5 reasons for the struggles of the industry.

It's okay, we probably align a lot on positions.
I'm just tired of the "SJW" argument. It's become very tiresome and I'm trying my best to debunk every time I hear it

[hairys]

It's okay, we probably align a lot on positions.
I'm just tired of the "SJW" argument. It's become very tiresome and I'm trying my best to debunk every time I hear it

I'm very happy to be able to have rational discussion with you, FFJamie.