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  1. #46
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    If this gets made and we'll still have Superman and Lois running then they'll need to differentiate this from that so I hope they really pull from E2 comic and have Val be part of a new wave of heroes after a war leaves the Trinity dead/disappeared.
    I agree with you. This would be ideal. We'll see what they do.
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  2. #47
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    **** I hope they leave Brutaal out of it, Christ no more Evil Superman please.
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  3. #48
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    While I especially don't want Power Girl's cinematic debut to be someone's arm candy, I don't want that for any superhero. Seriously. Do not introduce a female character who has her own thing going on never seen before as a Superman's girlfriend. It's just awful.

    The New 52 is one of the worst things to ever happen to PG. It relegated her to arm candy twice. TWICE.
    I'm curious about something. Would you be okay with the project if it was titled something like Superman and Power Woman (Girl) thus "Karen" receives equal billing, or would you still disapprove of PG putting in an appearance?
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  4. #49

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    Val-Zod's more of a blank slate to me so I'm curious what they come up with. He has characterization from the Earth 2 series from the New 52 era but I see them scrapping most of that and going back to basics with him. Granted maybe this takes place on Earth 2?

  5. #50
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I'm curious about something. Would you be okay with the project if it was titled something like Superman and Power Woman (Girl) thus "Karen" receives equal billing, or would you still disapprove of PG putting in an appearance?
    That would be better, but ultimately I don't want any female superheroes to have their first appearance on screen be someone's girlfriend. I generally would prefer if they got to do their own thing first.

    I get it in some cases where it's a long-time relationship that is part of the character's history (Arthur and Mera, for example) but not really in this case. Val and Kara were very short lived and I think that time didn't really help either of them.
    Last edited by Robanker; 07-24-2021 at 03:46 PM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    That would be better, but ultimately I don't want any female superheroes to have their first appearance on screen be someone's girlfriend. I generally would prefer if they got to do their own thing first.

    I get it in some cases where it's a long-time relationship that is part of the character's history (Arthur and Mera, for example) but not really in this case. Val and Kara were very short lived and I think that time didn't really help either of them.
    This. That GF thing is very annoying to me because it demeans the character, and the nu52 was rife with that with respect to Power Girl. Honestly, I'd want any film with Power Girl in it to concentrate of telling HER story, not anyone else. There's more than enough to cover with establishing her own character, the plot, and some supporting characters....AND giving her a mission that makes her more than just a less famous but for me more satisfying version of Supergirl, ( which is one of WB's favorite ways to fail at making DC movies or TV, load them up with far too much stuff to cover in the runtime. In that respect, it's no wonder the Snyder cut was superior to Whedon's version, the runtime alone allowed him to flesh stuff out a bit more than the theatrical version could. Thing is, it never should have had to, as Marvel hit on the right way to do that sort of thing a long time ago, and it's called multiple movies. Bit of a digression there, I know, but it does go to the fact that PG needs any movie she's in to work on her, and not spread the attention too far.

    This is after all a character who's mostly been in team books, having perhaps 35 or so total issues of sundry Power Girl comics, (counting her minis). And in none of those books did they really give it even a good try for developing her character or support. Yes, yes, she's had supporting characters and even a few villains of her own, but let's face it, even I couldn't name most of them without looking them up. She has no Jokers of her own, no Jimmy Olsen or Alfred or Gordon of her own....she needs that stuff first before even thinking of giving her a romantic interest, which BTW should be done in a much better way than they did in the nu52, which was basically an insult to women IMO. They dumbed her down, sexed her up and really just lost the traits that first manifested in All-Star Comics, and later work done in JLE/JLI/JLA (the Giffen Leagues) in favor of making her well, the nu52 version.

    This is what I fear would happen to her in someone else's movie, especially with THAT character, given her horrible nu52 history with him. I will grant you though that at least she was far more formidable than he was in the nu52, but that's faint praise given everything else they did to her.
    Last edited by achilles; 07-24-2021 at 04:25 PM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    for warner / dc, Batman is above success, in the 90s batman had very bad movies, but it did not matter, warner / dc kept releasing movies. superman had to wait more than 20 years to have a movie, MoS took it out of obligation , the rest of Dc has it even worse. a clear example is snyder's batman, he was the leader of the 2 most important films in dc history, the 2 were a failure, but at no time was batman blamed. Superman doesn't need a hit, he needs someone in the offices who cares about him, like the rest cares about Batman.
    Looking at the box office,only Batman & Robin didn't do numbers, despite having the biggest budget. Superman IV had a budget of $17mil dollars grossed only $30.6mil back. Batman also had his highly successful and praised animated series carrying him as well. So yeah, WB never got Superman. Richard Donner was a creative mind who got it right. Tim Burton got it right. Joel Schumacher was a hiccup in many ways. I forgot about Lois & Clark, which lasted four seasons. I don't know about the show's popularity enough to actually gauge it. So, I'll let other fans do it. Seeing as it had four-seasons, I'll

    I'll also state it here, I'm not claiming Superman the Animated Series isn't popular, but it's not on the level of Batman The Animated Series and Justice League/Unlimited.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    Looking at the box office,only Batman & Robin didn't do numbers, despite having the biggest budget. Superman IV had a budget of $17mil dollars grossed only $30.6mil back. Batman also had his highly successful and praised animated series carrying him as well. So yeah, WB never got Superman. Richard Donner was a creative mind who got it right. Tim Burton got it right. Joel Schumacher was a hiccup in many ways. I forgot about Lois & Clark, which lasted four seasons. I don't know about the show's popularity enough to actually gauge it. So, I'll let other fans do it. Seeing as it had four-seasons, I'll

    I'll also state it here, I'm not claiming Superman the Animated Series isn't popular, but it's not on the level of Batman The Animated Series and Justice League/Unlimited.
    Nolan's Batman started with a budget of 150 million, ended with a box office of 374 million, Superman Returns began with a budget of 204 million and ended with a box office of 391 million, Batman ended with a trilogy, Superman it was cancelled. batman protagonist of BvS and JL, superman adding the 2 movies came out 10 minutes and had 10 sentences, the movies were a failure and the fault is superman, that's why batman already has his movie, superman simple rumors. Joker made a fool of himself, Lex too, Joker has his movie and a second one according to rumors, Lex is totally forgotten. Batman and his universe have all the opportunities in the world, the rest have to make it perfect.

  9. #54
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    This. That GF thing is very annoying to me because it demeans the character, and the nu52 was rife with that with respect to Power Girl. Honestly, I'd want any film with Power Girl in it to concentrate of telling HER story, not anyone else. There's more than enough to cover with establishing her own character, the plot, and some supporting characters....AND giving her a mission that makes her more than just a less famous but for me more satisfying version of Supergirl, ( which is one of WB's favorite ways to fail at making DC movies or TV, load them up with far too much stuff to cover in the runtime. In that respect, it's no wonder the Snyder cut was superior to Whedon's version, the runtime alone allowed him to flesh stuff out a bit more than the theatrical version could. Thing is, it never should have had to, as Marvel hit on the right way to do that sort of thing a long time ago, and it's called multiple movies. Bit of a digression there, I know, but it does go to the fact that PG needs any movie she's in to work on her, and not spread the attention too far.

    This is after all a character who's mostly been in team books, having perhaps 35 or so total issues of sundry Power Girl comics, (counting her minis). And in none of those books did they really give it even a good try for developing her character or support. Yes, yes, she's had supporting characters and even a few villains of her own, but let's face it, even I couldn't name most of them without looking them up. She has no Jokers of her own, no Jimmy Olsen or Alfred or Gordon of her own....she needs that stuff first before even thinking of giving her a romantic interest, which BTW should be done in a much better way than they did in the nu52, which was basically an insult to women IMO. They dumbed her down, sexed her up and really just lost the traits that first manifested in All-Star Comics, and later work done in JLE/JLI/JLA (the Giffen Leagues) in favor of making her well, the nu52 version.

    This is what I fear would happen to her in someone else's movie, especially with THAT character, given her horrible nu52 history with him. I will grant you though that at least she was far more formidable than he was in the nu52, but that's faint praise given everything else they did to her.
    Not to derail this further, I want Val to stand on his own and to do so I want them to give him a supporting cast and status quo that is entirely his own and revolves around him.

    Above all else, he's another Superman and needs to be distinct from Clark and Calvin, who despite his limited appearances has already made a larger impact.

    I have a similar issue with Wonder Woman where people keep trying to pair her up with other IP and I think her world should revolve around her.

    I've more or less given up on Val and Michael B. Jordan is a creative talent strong enough I'll give Val another shot if he's involved, but I still don't feel good about using another superheroine (especially Karen) to prop him up again.

  10. #55
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Not to derail this further, I want Val to stand on his own and to do so I want them to give him a supporting cast and status quo that is entirely his own and revolves around him.

    Above all else, he's another Superman and needs to be distinct from Clark and Calvin, who despite his limited appearances has already made a larger impact.

    I have a similar issue with Wonder Woman where people keep trying to pair her up with other IP and I think her world should revolve around her.


    I've more or less given up on Val and Michael B. Jordan is a creative talent strong enough I'll give Val another shot if he's involved, but I still don't feel good about using another superheroine (especially Karen) to prop him up again.
    While I do see what you mean the example you show is not accurate as this is apples and oranges. It is nothing like pairing Diana with Bruce or Clark instead of Steve her original love interest. A version of PG was Val's love interest from the very start. If you change that aspect you are ignoring the source material, like it or not. I'm just saying.
    Last edited by Celgress; 07-24-2021 at 06:05 PM.
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  11. #56
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    While I do see what you mean the example you show is not accurate as this is apples and oranges. It is nothing like pairing Diana with Bruce or Clark instead of Steve her original love interest. A version of PG was Val's love interest from the very start. If you change that aspect you are ignoring the source material, like it or not. I'm just saying.
    You mean when they created Val and retconned Karen into his backstory where they were friends as young children and suddenly in love two panels later? That's like arguing every one of Bruce's long lost childhood friends was there from the beginning.

    It's just lazy writing trying to add chemistry instead of actually building it and it doesn't work unless you already wanted it to from the beginning. Does anyone actually feel bad for Bruce when his love interest of the arc turns evil or the latest Tommy Elliott dies? No. Likewise, unless you just want them dating because you like how they look together or something, there's nothing there between Karen and Val. They just rushed to relationship because they needed to make Val interesting and giving PG to him like a status symbol was their method for doing so.

    We didn't see them fall in love, or really why they work, just a quick flashback to then smiling as children and then they're in love. What?

    Trinity Shipping actually is better because at least it tries to argue what Diana sees in Bruce or Clark, much though I hate Trinity Shipping. They usually build it up to some capacity, such as the DCEU. It's not good, but they did the work. With Val/Karen they tried to skip the effort and that's why it failed a lot of readers, particularly PG fans who already were tired of it after it being done with Hal, Carter and Michael Holt.

    I'm tired of being told Karen suddenly has the hots for someone or getting turned into their girlfriend to prop them up. Perhaps it's because I actually enjoy romance that I want to see a couple develop and fall for each other before they get together. Getting told in a visual medium sucks.

    If they had a few interactions showing interest and then went on a date or something? Sure. But that's never what happens with PG. She is turned into arm candy every time of late and that's concerning. Doubly so when you remember she's a pretty outspoken feminist.
    Last edited by Robanker; 07-24-2021 at 06:41 PM.

  12. #57
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    You mean when they created Val and retconned Karen into his backstory where they were friends as young children and suddenly in love two panels later? That's like arguing every one of Bruce's long lost childhood friends was there from the beginning....
    Not exactly, it is a different universe with a different history.
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  13. #58
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    If anyone is going to make me care about Val, it's Michael B. Jordan. He's one of the most charismatic actors working today and I'm more excited for this currently than I am the other project.

    Can you imagine if we were getting Clark on TV, Calvin with Abrams/Coates and Val with Michael B. Jordan?

    Alas, we can't have all the nice things.
    This. I'd be so gods damned thrilled if this were Calvin and not Val. But if anyone can entice me to change my mind it's probably MBJ.

    Still, of all the versions of Superman out there, for Calvin to be *not* be getting a treatment somewhere? That hurts, bro.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    This
    I am against black clark kent
    not black superman
    And also this.

    A race bent Clark Kent isn't the end of the world or anything, not like I'd boycott the film (I'll do that because I have no faith in WB), but it just stinks of pandering to me. They either change Clark's life experience to reflect the bending and it largely stops being Clark Kent, or they change nothing and it's basically just blackface.

    When WB is lazy enough to just racebend Clark instead of investing in their actual, fantastic PoC roster, I feel like they're telling me they don't think John Stewart, Steel, Cyborg, Vixen, Black Lightning, Icon, Hardware, Static, and a ton of other characters aren't worth the effort. I take issue with that.
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  14. #59
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Honestly Jordan was born to play a superhero character, he's got action hero written all over him, and he's got the acting skills. I'm a big fan of his. I like Calvin better than Val-Zod too, but at the same time I feel this work has far more potential than the Abrams/Coates one, even if that one is Calvin and not race-bent Clark (I still consider that a possibility till they name him by something that definitively states the character).
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  15. #60
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Thinking about the visuals, I really hope we don't get a muted color scheme. The white on the costume pops so much when placed against bolder, more vibrant colors. I also kind of hope he doesn't shave. I think the facial hair will provide greater contrast from a more traditional clean-shaven Superman such as Clark or Calvin.
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