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  1. #61
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Not the retort you think it is. Getting your ass beat by your enemy’s butler who then takes your greatest foe to safety is a loss not a win.
    It's also funny that I guess Superman fans just need to accept him losing to Alfred as not being a big deal.

    Whereas Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel and GL fans would go absolutely apeshit if Alfred beat them up, and they would be 100% correct in doing so.

    This is also somehow all retaliation for Superman's treatment in TDKR at the hands of Batman, despite this scene in particular only existing to give the Bat-universe another "fuck yeah!" moment by showing if for some reason Batman can't take out Superman himself, one of his allies still can.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 07-26-2021 at 08:26 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It's also funny that I guess Superman fans just need to accept him losing to Alfred as not being a big deal.

    Whereas Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel and GL fans would go absolutely apeshit if Alfred beat them up, and they would be 100% correct in doing so.
    If they were as useless in a fight as Vordan incorrectly accuses Injustice Superman of being, yeah they would.

    This is also somehow all retaliation for Superman's treatment in TDKR at the hands of Batman, despite this scene in particular only existing to give the Bat-universe another "fuck yeah!" moment by showing if for some reason Batman can't take out Superman himself, one of his allies still can.
    This scene is not what I am talking about when I said that.

  3. #63
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    Mark Grayson's world is written for the Viltrumites and an overpowered Omni Man, the original Guardians of the Globes main purposes were to be th victims of the betrayal of Omni-Man and to be a template for the new Guardians as example, and any writer who would write Superman or Kryptonians and the Justice League with that mind-set should never get allowed to write even 1 Justice League issue.
    Who is still the not main protagonist...A support character that serves the world building and gives you the power structure/scaling.I was saying.superman can tell good stories and have good world of his own away from dc.Well you said it yourself,they weren't prepared for the betrayal .

    There is no greenrock for clark to go falling over like an idiot he is written as.I would also like to say that dc written best tactic till this day is " i threw a rock at him!!! It was a big one". That's it.This ain't no death note.The tactics are poultry.

    With that being said.I have no doubt superman can deck all the justice league members whether through force or tactics.That's that.Even the best of em including ww and captain marvel.why?clark had consistently shown feats stronger than them before them.Right from the goldenage.I would say ww is. The only departure to extend to that.Even then superman doesn't bow.ww wouldn't fight petty battles.Clark would(always a fight).cap did play catch up to clark in goldenage and then got left behind.that's that.This was presented in court if i remember correctly.Them replicating superman's feats..
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-26-2021 at 09:41 PM.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  4. #64
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    If they were as useless in a fight as Vordan incorrectly accuses Injustice Superman of being, yeah they would.
    Vordan is not incorrect at all in his assessment of it being a pathetic scene. Because Alfred beating up Superman to rescue Mawster Wayne is inherently the dumbest thing ever. Superman wins and then gets beaten by the hired help is laughable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    This scene is not what I am talking about when I said that.
    What were you talking about then? Because I have to agree with Vordan's earlier assessment that it's kind of nonsense, I'm sorry. Superman punking other superheroes as some sort of payback for TDKR when Batman (the one who actually starred in TDKR) generally remains untouched doesn't make a lick of sense. Who is really asking for any of this?
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 07-26-2021 at 09:19 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Vordan is not incorrect at all in his assessment of it being a pathetic scene. Because Alfred beating up Superman to rescue Mawster Wayne is inherently the dumbest thing ever. Superman wins and then gets beaten by the hired help is laughable.
    And I'm not disagreeing with that necessarily. But Vordan are acting like every fight Injustice Superman has went this way.


    What were you talking about then? Because I have to agree with Vordan's earlier assessment that it's kind of nonsense, I'm sorry. Superman punking other superheroes as some sort of payback for TDKR when Batman (the one who actually starred in TDKR) generally remains untouched doesn't make a lick of sense. Who is really asking for any of this?
    Ever heard of the concept of misplaced retribution? That's what I am talking about in regards to stories like these. DC/WB can not or will not do that many stories of Superman thrashing Batman so they'll make the rest of the DCU suffer instead.

  6. #66
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    It's not dkr batman's punch that hurt superman.It's the deconstruction.miller put jesus allegory/church ethics savior superman from the donner and pop culture in opposition to Nietzschean batman.No amount of punching back would help with this..

    "I bet your parents taught you that you mean something, that you're here for a reason. My parents taught me a different lesson, dying in the gutter for no reason at all... They taught me the world only makes sense if you force it to."
    So god died struck down by lightning for not choosing reality and people living on earth..For choosing a fantastical Utopia in tomorrow.."a kingdom of god"..,rather than now.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-27-2021 at 01:02 AM.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  7. #67
    Incredible Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post


    These are why Docha lmao. Supes is a f****** loser to the extent you will be utterly baffled at how he managed to ever pose a threat. All he does is get his ass beat by EVERYONE and has to constantly be bailed out. It’s the exact opposite of Omni-Man or the Plutonian from Irredeemable where those guys are able to wipe the floor with their opponents and you get WHY “Evil Superman” is so intimidating:



    At the end of the day Batman’s “code” is a bigger obstacle for him to overcome to beat Supes than Supes powers. Supes is a pathetic jobber who is an idiot and can’t do anything right.
    To be fair most of it comes from season 4 onwards where the new writer made Superman lose every fight he was in and tried to make a point of it. He wasn't such a jobber under Taylor.

  8. #68
    Incredible Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You do know Superman still won the fight with Wonder Woman right?



    Just about any time Injustice Superman gets brought up.
    No, Diana had him helpless before Sinestro bailed him out. Just like Hercules knocked him out before Shazam beat Hercules. Season 4 Superman was a joke.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfan90 View Post
    No, Diana had him helpless before Sinestro bailed him out. Just like Hercules knocked him out before Shazam beat Hercules. Season 4 Superman was a joke.
    I made a mistake in thinking he won but saying Diana had him helpless isn't quite accurate either. It was by no means an easy fight and it was implied he was holding back.

  10. #70
    Incredible Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I made a mistake in thinking he won but saying Diana had him helpless isn't quite accurate either. It was by no means an easy fight and it was implied he was holding back.
    No, she had him beaten and he actually threatened to kill her before that.




    It was just to humiliate the character.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Disagree with the bold. His powers make the story's hero come across as a huge underdog. It's just easy for casual viewers to understand without further explanation. That's why the Suicide Squad trailers for both movies mention Superman directly, and not any other Justice League member. It's why he's the villain of the upcoming SS video game, the villain in his one Batman Beyond appearance, the primary antagonist among the Justice Lords, Batman's antagonist in The Dark Knight Returns and BvS, and Injustice. You could point out issue X of comic book Y why hero Z is actually more powerful than Superman, but that doesn't resonate as well so that's why Superman gets picked on the most as the good guy gone bad. I'm sure the boy scout image helps, but it only works when in conjunction with the massive power set.

    My whole point is if you're going to demean Superman by making him a bad guy, then make him a proper bad guy. I'd say The Boys goes more for the idea that Homelander can beat any other of the Seven one-on-one but a team effort can bring him down, whereas Invincible showed us he could beat the entire GG in an ambush attack (and don't forget the aspect that it was an ambush and the GGs suspected he might be mind-controlled and didn't go all out at first), and we can argue whether or not the details were right or wrong. I'm just arguing they made him effective, which is better than all those contrarian thought pieces from the 80s - 2000s that Superman really isn't all that powerful and heroes A, B, C, D, etc. could actually beat him.
    The only way that reasoning don't becomes circular logic, is if you are trying to imply that the Suicide Squad or Batman would not look like huge underdogs in front of not jobbing and evil Flash, Martianan Manhunter, Wonder Woman or Green Lantern, which would also just mean that DC and WB has so far failed extremely hard to present them properly to the public. And i don't understand why you use Injustice as an example for that Superman is so powerful now, if you the entire time talk about what a wimp they have made him. Superman still gets chosen because he is the most well known to the degree of almost being the template for a comic superhero, a boyscout in the view of the general public, and because he was supposed to be the biggest superhero friend of Batman before Batman became a huge dick in addition with Bat-God. If a classical Doctor Fate would have appeared in front of the Suicide Squad, anyone who knows him would know that they are crazily screwed, but he did not appear because the most viewers of the trailer would just ask who that is.

    They also did not make Wonder Woman and Aquaman proper bad guys in Flashpoint, and heck Wonder Woman is arguably the worst written character in Injustice and at times portrayed as a laughable weakling with an image of being the true main evil, and making Superman a proper bad guy would still not require to make anyone else look bad. Superman just losing to several other superheroes is as bad as turning him into Omni-Man or especially Homelander, but the reverse is not better, Batman should if just beat him in extremely unique situations and Alfred better not at all, but Superman vs another heavy hitter of the Justice League should be in it's core nearing a 50/50 that gets the most shifted through special advantages and the match-ups.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It's also funny that I guess Superman fans just need to accept him losing to Alfred as not being a big deal.

    Whereas Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel and GL fans would go absolutely apeshit if Alfred beat them up, and they would be 100% correct in doing so.
    Does anyone even argue against the fact, that Batman and related make anyone else including Superman even more often look bad than Superman does?

    Alfred at least had a superpill, Batman just had martial arys and cheap gadget, in this fight:



    Last edited by Rightoya; 07-27-2021 at 04:20 AM.

  12. #72
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    Last edited by Rightoya; 07-27-2021 at 02:28 AM.

  13. #73
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Ever heard of the concept of misplaced retribution? That's what I am talking about in regards to stories like these. DC/WB can not or will not do that many stories of Superman thrashing Batman so they'll make the rest of the DCU suffer instead.
    Isn't this the same as people accusing Snyder and the IJ studio of hating Superman despite no solid evidence of that being the motivation? There isn't any evidence that this is the thought process behind any of this, and again Superman fans are not exactly clamoring for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    Does anyone even argue against the fact, that Batman and related make anyone else including Superman even more often look bad than Superman does?

    Alfred at least had a superpill, Batman just had martial arys and cheap gadget, in this fight:
    I honestly don't know which of these scenarios is worse. Because Bat-God Mary Sue is bad, but Alfred taking a magical plot device pill is some next level stupid.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Isn't this the same as people accusing Snyder and the IJ studio of hating Superman despite no solid evidence of that being the motivation? There isn't any evidence that this is the thought process behind any of this, and again Superman fans are not exactly clamoring for it.
    ....

    Well, touche to that one. You got me there.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    The only way that reasoning don't becomes circular logic, is if you are trying to imply that the Suicide Squad or Batman would not look like huge underdogs in front of not jobbing and evil Flash, Martianan Manhunter, Wonder Woman or Green Lantern, which would also just mean that DC and WB has so far failed extremely hard to present them properly to the public. And i don't understand why you use Injustice as an example for that Superman is so powerful now, if you the entire time talk about what a wimp they have made him. Superman still gets chosen because he is the most well known to the degree of almost being the template for a comic superhero, a boyscout in the view of the general public, and because he was supposed to be the biggest superhero friend of Batman before Batman became a huge dick in addition with Bat-God. If a classical Doctor Fate would have appeared in front of the Suicide Squad, anyone who knows him would know that they are crazily screwed, but he did not appear because the most viewers of the trailer would just ask who that is.

    They also did not make Wonder Woman and Aquaman proper bad guys in Flashpoint, and heck Wonder Woman is arguably the worst written character in Injustice and at times portrayed as a laughable weakling with an image of being the true main evil, and making Superman a proper bad guy would still not require to make anyone else look bad. Superman just losing to several other superheroes is as bad as turning him into Omni-Man or especially Homelander, but the reverse is not better, Batman should if just beat him in extremely unique situations and Alfred better not at all, but Superman vs another heavy hitter of the Justice League should be in it's core nearing a 50/50 that gets the most shifted through special advantages and the match-ups.



    Does anyone even argue against the fact, that Batman and related make anyone else including Superman even more often look bad than Superman does?

    Alfred at least had a superpill, Batman just had martial arys and cheap gadget, in this fight:
    I kind of don't understand why there's still a back and forth here. All I'm saying is that EVIL SUPERMAN! and analogues pop up a lot, and that if he's going to be portrayed as the equivalent of a video game final boss, then he better at least be portrayed as such in the story. Otherwise, if you keep picking on Superman as the ultimate bad guy but he gets slapped round repeatedly, he becomes an 80s cartoon villain (Shredder and Krang, Skeletor, Cobra Commander, etc.). I'm saying you can argue whether or not the execution of this was on point, but that general idea of making him a hypercompetent villain is absolutely the right move. This has nothing to do with Flash, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, or Aquaman because in comparison to Superman, they practically never get picked on as the go-to, de facto hero gone rogue and the ultimate bad guy.

    Also, I said in the beginning

    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    The Boys and Invincible show us that their take on Superman really is the top dog among all heroes.

    On the other hand, DC's reigning champ as Evil Superman, Injustice Supes, is a weenie in comparison.
    I said The Boys and Invincible have the positive contribution of saying Superman is on top of the food chain. You can call that a hot take or what have you, but in my opinion the way they approach that is good (if you accept a villainous Superman type, which I'm not fond of). It's like saying if you're going to go down, go down swinging (i.e. you're in a bad situation, but if you have to be in a bad situation, dictate the terms of how you want it to go down). And I said IJ Supes fails to do this, because they make him a weenie for a variety of reasons (not mentally tough like Batman, loses a bunch of fights).

    If you want me to caveat that first sentence to be more "top dog among commonly-known DC heroes," fine. Whatever. But this is such a simple statement that's been over-dissected and I feel like I'm being forced to repeat myself any time I have to address a reply.

    In short, the EVIL SUPERMAN! trope leaves you with two main options:

    1) Superman is such a d!ck and he when he goes rogue he seems like a nearly-unstoppable force.
    2) Superman is such a d!ck but when he goes rogue he's easily defeated but hangs around like a dingleberry because the plot demands it.

    If I had to pick one of those two options (I'd rather pick neither...), I pick 1) every time. And that's what The Boys and Invincible do, give us 1) and not 2). Injustice doesn't give us 1). They give us something closer to 2).

    Also, it's totally possible to say you like the way EVIL SUPERMAN! is treated, without liking the way the analagous WW, Flash, GL, AM, MM, etc. are treated, or you have mixed feelings, whatever.

    Anyway, that's my opinion which I feel like I've laid out several times now. You don't have to agree with it.
    Last edited by DochaDocha; 07-27-2021 at 07:12 AM.

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