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  1. #16
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Are we talking about the same guy who required another Superman from a different universe to beat?

    Also, Homelander might be the most powerful "hero" in his universe but he's also Vought's lapdog. Injustice Superman isn't taking orders from anyone else.
    I haven't seen the second season yet, but isn't this not the case for the show? Or at the least it's very iffy if he will remain on their leash? He killed Stillwell in the season 1 finale, and I understand that didn't happen in the comics.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I think in some ways Evil Superman helps define regular Superman by listing all the things Superman is when done opposite.

  3. #18
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    Nothing stated here is a positive contribution of evil Superman. Superman has always been defined by his choices, ever since Action comics #1. Superman being defined by his powers is bad writing. Superman's powers are just tools in his fight against injustice and corruption, and his many enemies.
    The whole Batman thing is bullshit, everyone knows it. But, DC pushed the crap out of it because folks thought it was cool and didn't realize that TDKR actually had a point to Batman's victory. So now we got BS like the Red Son movie and Snyder's BvS.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Well,i like superman and i want some content where he goes around beating up every other hero,villain or whatever like a boss.. That's it.
    The other properties can do the reverse as well.That's that..heck!i would love to see aquaman killing the dcuniverse..it's not that serious.
    How does any hero 1 after another beats up everyone and makes the rest look like **** at their turn sound like a good idea to you, how should that even look like? DCEU Superman made the rest of the Justice League look like **** in Justice Legue, so next Wonder Woman brutally murders not just Superman but uses him as a baseball-bat to brutally murder at least the rest of the Justice League too in a Death Earth like rage-fit, next pick a Bat-God story, next Aquaman impales them all with his trident, next Flash........, and so on, and from the start again?

    That would be not a working shared verse, that would be a joke, and i am not sure if you truly understand why One Punch Man works.
    Last edited by Rightoya; 07-25-2021 at 12:28 PM.

  5. #20
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Only thing I can think of is the message for a world with a proper Superman to look in, and appreciate their Superman all the more for being the inherently good and unselfish person he is when it comes to his powers and how he chooses to utilize them. But tbh I don't even know if that's something even pointed out in any of these narratives.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Are we talking about the same guy who required another Superman from a different universe to beat?

    Also, Homelander might be the most powerful "hero" in his universe but he's also Vought's lapdog. Injustice Superman isn't taking orders from anyone else.
    If you're just talking about the game version of Injustice Superman (I only played the first one), then you have a point. But he's still a weenie, if you ask me. Homelander is, too, but I find it distasteful that IJ Superman starts out with what's essentially regular Superman, he has his Joker-esque "One Bad Day," and now he's a spoiled brat who heat visions the brains of allies who disagree with him or gets easily manipulated by Luthor. If you're talking about the comics version, I can't speak too much of him because I stopped reading sometime in S2, but he got punked by Alfred who took a power pill and the only reason he's still around is that Alfred showed mercy.

    Homelander was supposed to be Vought's lap dog, but he has just enough agency to show they don't really have a leash on him. I feel like he's growing enough as villain whereas IJ Superman was just supposed to be bad for the sake of Batman-centric plot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    How is making anyone else look like **** in comparison a good thing?

    DCEU's Justice League, Bat-God, and trash like other Justice League members in the comics, Elseworlds, and so on getting jobbed out to make Superman and Batman look good are terrible enough already, the last thing we need is that DC starts to think they should also portray Superman as a god throning above the other superheroes, who are at the mercy of him not using his unstoppable holy power on them. Regardless if it is the typical DC way with Batman as the 1 exception, who has naturally 1000s of plans to take out Supe-God, the only thing worse than a Bat-God verse would be a Bat-God vs Supe-God verse.
    There's a natural pecking order among heroes. I know a lot of fans would prefer if the Justice League were the Round Table where there's no head or foot, and everyone is equal, but it really isn't. Yeah, Omni-Man eventually beat all of the Guardians, but it certainly wasn't easy.

    Anyway, more to the point, I feel like the whole point of having an EVIL SUPERMAN! is that if Superman went evil, he'd be terrifying. Omni-Man is because he proved it on the battlefield. Homelander just has this creepy vibe, but he does come across as terrifying to others, and his character feels like it's evolving into something more dangerous. IJ Superman... I dunno. Kind of reminds me of Shredder and Krang. Like, he should come across as dangerous, but for various reasons he doesn't.

    FWIW, I don't think this glut of Evil Supermen analogues is good. I'm just saying that at least they're getting one aspect of Superman correct. I think Superman should be immensely heroic and competent. Superman in the last three decades or so has been a character who's been dissected to a large degree about what his vulnerabilities are, etc. If you're going to make him evil, then you better at least make him hyper-competent.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Batman beat him the 2nd time around.
    When? And please don't mention the ending that may or may not even be canon.


    Also,damn!people really hung up on superman's righteousness.huh!
    Like how you get hung up on any time he loses?

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    If you're just talking about the game version of Injustice Superman (I only played the first one), then you have a point. But he's still a weenie, if you ask me. Homelander is, too, but I find it distasteful that IJ Superman starts out with what's essentially regular Superman, he has his Joker-esque "One Bad Day," and now he's a spoiled brat who heat visions the brains of allies who disagree with him or gets easily manipulated by Luthor. If you're talking about the comics version, I can't speak too much of him because I stopped reading sometime in S2, but he got punked by Alfred who took a power pill and the only reason he's still around is that Alfred showed mercy.
    Luthor only lasted as long as he did because he and Superman originally weren't enemies in that universe and the minute Clark learned of his treachery he was dead. And if you're going to hold that against him, Homelander is a narcissistic moron who never thinks of the potential pitfalls of any action he takes, is far more stupid than IJ Superman and the second season had him get blackmailed by Queen Maeve.

    And it isn't like Homelander and Omni-Man are the main characters in their own stories.

    There's a natural pecking order among heroes. I know a lot of fans would prefer if the Justice League were the Round Table where there's no head or foot, and everyone is equal, but it really isn't. Yeah, Omni-Man eventually beat all of the Guardians, but it certainly wasn't easy.
    And so long as writers and fans insist on this being the case, we're going to keep getting evil Superman stories.

    A pecking order won't help Superman either because he will always end up below Batman.

    Anyway, more to the point, I feel like the whole point of having an EVIL SUPERMAN! is that if Superman went evil, he'd be terrifying.
    The same can be said of any superhero. Hell, you don't even need to make him evil if you want a terrifying and competent Superman that badly.

    Omni-Man is because he proved it on the battlefield. Homelander just has this creepy vibe, but he does come across as terrifying to others, and his character feels like it's evolving into something more dangerous. IJ Superman... I dunno. Kind of reminds me of Shredder and Krang. Like, he should come across as dangerous, but for various reasons he doesn't.
    I don't recall Shredder or Krang (I assume you're talking about the 80s version) wiping out an entire fleet single-handedly, destroying their enemy's anonymity, dumping a city in a desert and breaking their enemies' back.

    I once saw a comment that Superman writers have basically been taking out their dislike over The Dark Knight Returns on the rest of the DCU and I can't help but agree. As bad as Superman gets it in Evil Superman stories, other heroes seem to get it even worse. Wonder Woman being one of the most notable examples.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-25-2021 at 03:09 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    Proved that people would be just fine with Superman beating the crap out of Batman and Superman's fanbase is afraid of something that never really existed.
    And what would that be?

  10. #25
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Luthor only lasted as long as he did because he and Superman originally weren't enemies in that universe and the minute Clark learned of his treachery he was dead. And if you're going to hold that against him, Homelander is a narcissistic moron who never thinks of the potential pitfalls of any action he takes, is far more stupid than IJ Superman and the second season had him get blackmailed by Queen Maeve.
    I feel stuff like getting beat up by fucking Alfred Pennyworth is a fair thing to hold against IJ Superman, because that is absolutely pathetic and peek Bat-franchise wanking. Nothing that pitiful seems to have happened to Homelander, at least not yet, so people are going to hold things against IJ Supes that they wouldn't for Homelander. Especially as Homelander, despite being a clear expy, is his own character from another franchise. Even as an alternate universe version, IJ Supes is still Clark.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And so long as writers and fans insist on this being the case, we're going to keep getting evil Superman stories.

    A pecking order won't help Superman either because he will always end up below Batman.
    There was kind of a pecking order pre-Crisis, and the legacy of that is where the belief of a pecking order comes from. There wasn't exactly an influx of evil Supermen back then, so that's not a justifiable excuse to keep having it now.



    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The same can be said of any superhero.
    Not really, in the DC universe there aren't many heroes that would be as singularly terrifying and intimidating as an evil Superman, at least not in the same way. Wonder Woman, Supergirl, MM and Captain Marvel should really be it.

    Hawkman and Black Canary going evil wouldn't be anywhere near that level, let's be real.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I once saw a comment that Superman writers have basically been taking out their dislike over The Dark Knight Returns on the rest of the DCU and I can't help but agree. As bad as Superman gets it in Evil Superman stories, other heroes seem to get it even worse. Wonder Woman being one of the most notable examples.
    How is Superman taking it out on the rest of the DCU exactly? That implies he's really benefiting from this. It's not like stuff like IJ or the scrapped plans for the DCEU are doing him any favors beyond the surface level: yeah he's a badass powerhouse over everyone else, but he's also a dangerous problem, and that's not something the Superman fans are clamoring for exactly. That's why threads like this exist.

    As bad as other superheroes get it (especially Wonder Woman), none of them have a story as singularly impactful and mainstream as TDKR. That was a hugely influential graphic novel on the entire genre, and it included a highly visible take on Superman that throws him under the bus. If Captain Atom or Booster Gold or Guy Garnder get thrown under the bus in a monthly comic, it's still bad but it's not like that comic would have anywhere near the visibility or legacy of TDKR.

    Wonder Woman also arguably gets treated worse in IJ, but that just means its two (or more) piles of **** instead of one and it doesn't mean Superman isn't also getting it bad. She also has the benefit of her movies not pulling inspiration from the games like the DCEU was planning on doing for Clark, so she's kind of sitting better on that front.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I feel stuff like getting beat up by fucking Alfred Pennyworth is a fair thing to hold against IJ Superman, because that is absolutely pathetic and peek Bat-franchise wanking. Nothing that pitiful seems to have happened to Homelander, at least not yet, so people are going to hold things against IJ Supes that they wouldn't for Homelander. Especially as Homelander, despite being a clear expy, is his own character from another franchise. Even as an alternate universe version, IJ Supes is still Clark.




    There was kind of a pecking order pre-Crisis, and the legacy of that is where the belief of a pecking order comes from. There wasn't exactly an influx of evil Supermen back then, so that's not a justifiable excuse to keep having it now.





    Not really, in the DC universe there aren't many heroes that would be as singularly terrifying and intimidating as an evil Superman, at least not in the same way. Wonder Woman, Supergirl, MM and Captain Marvel should really be it.

    Hawkman and Black Canary going evil wouldn't be anywhere near that level, let's be real.



    How is Superman taking it out on the rest of the DCU exactly? That implies he's really benefiting from this. It's not like stuff like IJ or the scrapped plans for the DCEU are doing him any favors beyond the surface level: yeah he's a badass powerhouse over everyone else, but he's also a dangerous problem, and that's not something the Superman fans are clamoring for exactly. That's why threads like this exist.

    As bad as other superheroes get it (especially Wonder Woman), none of them have a story as singularly impactful and mainstream as TDKR. That was a hugely influential graphic novel on the entire genre, and it included a highly visible take on Superman that throws him under the bus. If Captain Atom or Booster Gold or Guy Garnder get thrown under the bus in a monthly comic, it's still bad but it's not like that comic would have anywhere near the visibility or legacy of TDKR.

    Wonder Woman also arguably gets treated worse in IJ, but that just means its two (or more) piles of **** instead of one and it doesn't mean Superman isn't also getting it bad. She also has the benefit of her movies not pulling inspiration from the games like the DCEU was planning on doing for Clark, so she's kind of sitting better on that front.
    I said Superman writers not Superman. And I acknowledged it wasn't doing him any favors. My point was that it often feels like the rest of the DCU is paying for how Superman was treated in TDKR.

  12. #27
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I said Superman writers not Superman. And I acknowledged it wasn't doing him any favors. My point was that it often feels like the rest of the DCU is paying for how Superman was treated in TDKR.
    But that doesn't really make much sense, at least not in a way that means it's being done in retaliation for what was done to Superman. Because IJ is the biggest mainstream example, and again it's not being done for his benefit, at least not in a believable way that Superman fans actually want. It's being done for Batman's.

  13. #28
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    I think in some ways Evil Superman helps define regular Superman by listing all the things Superman is when done opposite.
    Also an evil Superman who's not the REAL Superman lets you skip with the who questioning if Superman is actually evil thing. It's like SEE! THIS! is what Superman would be like if he was ACTUALLY evil.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Not going to go point for point, but in general, if any JL member represents this terrifying villain if gone rogue, then the distribution of high-profile stories of evil versions of heroes wouldn't involve so many evil Superman stories. It would be more of a mixed bag. And if you're going to pick on Superman as that villain, then you should actually pay that story off by showing what kind of havoc EVIL SUPERMAN! is going to wreak on the resistance. I think Invincible and The Boys do it better than Injustice. YMMV.

    As for Shredder and Krang from the 1987 cartoon, Krang took over Dimension X, and Shredder soloed the TMNT (he did it at least once, but that wasn't a common occurrence on the cartoon). My overall point is that their combined forces should seem to be enough to stop the TMNT, but in every episode, they fail, because it's an 80s kid cartoon.

  15. #30
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Like, he should come across as dangerous, but for various reasons he doesn't.
    .


    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

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