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  1. #31
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    These are why Docha lmao. Supes is a f****** loser to the extent you will be utterly baffled at how he managed to ever pose a threat. All he does is get his ass beat by EVERYONE and has to constantly be bailed out. It’s the exact opposite of Omni-Man or the Plutonian from Irredeemable where those guys are able to wipe the floor with their opponents and you get WHY “Evil Superman” is so intimidating:



    At the end of the day Batman’s “code” is a bigger obstacle for him to overcome to beat Supes than Supes powers. Supes is a pathetic jobber who is an idiot and can’t do anything right.
    Last edited by Vordan; 07-25-2021 at 07:18 PM.
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  2. #32
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Heh, IJ Supes (I don't even think he deserves to be called "Supes") is a bigger weenie than I thought... Glad I stopped reading in S2!

    Anyway, none of these Evil Superman analogues are necessarily good. But if you absolutely had to make one, then I think the one favor you can do for Supes is make him scary, and he has to win more key battles than the Washington Generals have victories over the Globetrotters (six, according to fivethirtyeight.com).

  3. #33
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    So what I learnt from this is that the Injustice games actually do less bat-wank than the comics.

  4. #34
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    That would be not a working shared verse, that would be a joke, and i am not sure if you truly understand why One Punch Man works.
    Cause slugfest and absolute takeover are fun to watch.
    Who cares about shared universe.They call it that.Yet,they don't share anything.The characters get preferential treatments..Dc revolves around batman,superman,ww..etc.Yes,i do.One punch man is awesome when he just shows up and has an awesome fight with an antagonist that punches him to the moon.Only to know that it didn't even hurt...
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    When? And please don't mention the ending that may or may not even be canon.




    Like how you get hung up on any time he loses?
    Yeah! if they surprise me with superman canon i would give you a thumbs up.i doubt it.

    When have i done that?i literally have comment saying aquaman kills the dcu.I just have a problem with super-wet-towel,regardless.Losing and jobbing ain't the same.Jobbing all the time is even more nonsensical.jobbing most of the time requires you to look pathetic.Beyond that,the injustice superman is just bland,mate..Even if he won,he would remain that.Some losers take the trophy home with applause of the audience because they put on a show to remeber.Clark has no drive.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-25-2021 at 08:48 PM.
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  5. #35
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I once saw a comment that Superman writers have basically been taking out their dislike over The Dark Knight Returns on the rest of the DCU and I can't help but agree. As bad as Superman gets it in Evil Superman stories, other heroes seem to get it even worse. Wonder Woman being one of the most notable examples.
    What? This makes zero sense. You think NRS made Injustice because they’re Superman fans? You think WW is evil to appease Superman fans? You think Superman lobotimzing Shazam was something Superman fans were asking for? How the hell does any of that make sense? Sounds like a bunch of pseudo intellectual nonsense. WW and the JL are written out of character to make Batman the plucky underdog who has to beat the whole League. Otherwise Diana and the rest are going to kick Clark’s ass, as shown in the panels I posted above, they’re evil because that’s how we justify Batman as the main opponent to Superman.

    You are right about one thing, that evil Superman is connected to the DKR, but you’re completely off as to which fanbase is getting more out of them. It’s Batman fans who do this crap, because they want to reenact the Dark Knight Returns fight over and over and OVER again. And they want to keep upping the stakes to make it even more “badass” for Batman to win, so they keep making Superman act more and more heinously to hype up the fight. For God’s sake Z, how many times do you need to see Batman don a mech suit and use Kryptonite and leave Supes a blubbering pile on the floor to see that? They’re not exactly SUBTLE about what they’re doing, about what story they’re homaging.

    We Superman fans get nothing out of it because the one guy we want to see Superman crush like an insect, Batman, has plot armor. I’d definitely get a petty pleasure out of seeing evil Superman smear a preptime Batman from one end of Crime Alley to the next, rubbing it in his face what a loser he is. But I don’t get that, I just get Supes committing war crimes against characters I don’t have any enmity towards, while the one guy I could get some petty fanboy pleasure seeing obliterated is nice and safe.
    Last edited by Vordan; 07-25-2021 at 08:38 PM.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post


    You do know Superman still won the fight with Wonder Woman right?

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post

    When have i done that?
    Just about any time Injustice Superman gets brought up.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    These are why Docha lmao. Supes is a f****** loser to the extent you will be utterly baffled at how he managed to ever pose a threat. All he does is get his ass beat by EVERYONE and has to constantly be bailed out. It’s the exact opposite of Omni-Man or the Plutonian from Irredeemable where those guys are able to wipe the floor with their opponents and you get WHY “Evil Superman” is so intimidating:

    At the end of the day Batman’s “code” is a bigger obstacle for him to overcome to beat Supes than Supes powers. Supes is a pathetic jobber who is an idiot and can’t do anything right.
    Bringing up a handful of instances where Injustice Superman lost doesn't make him a weakling. By this logic, any villain who has lost more times than won is a pushover (and Injustice Superman won more often than he lost).

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    What? This makes zero sense. You think NRS made Injustice because they’re Superman fans? You think WW is evil to appease Superman fans? You think Superman lobotimzing Shazam was something Superman fans were asking for? How the hell does any of that make sense? Sounds like a bunch of pseudo intellectual nonsense. WW and the JL are written out of character to make Batman the plucky underdog who has to beat the whole League. Otherwise Diana and the rest are going to kick Clark’s ass, as shown in the panels I posted above, they’re evil because that’s how we justify Batman as the main opponent to Superman.
    I think its them wanting to have their cake and eat it too. They get to portray Batman as a plucky underdog while also getting to show off just how much Superman outclasses everybody else.


    You are right about one thing, that evil Superman is connected to the DKR, but you’re completely off as to which fanbase is getting more out of them. It’s Batman fans who do this crap, because they want to reenact the Dark Knight Returns fight over and over and OVER again. And they want to keep upping the stakes to make it even more “badass” for Batman to win, so they keep making Superman act more and more heinously to hype up the fight. For God’s sake Z, how many times do you need to see Batman don a mech suit and use Kryptonite and leave Supes a blubbering pile on the floor to see that?
    How many times has that actually happened? The one in most recent memory is BvS and not only is Bruce "winning" not presented as a good thing but the next movie has him getting thrashed along with the rest of the League by Superman.


    We Superman fans get nothing out of it because the one guy we want to see Superman crush like an insect, Batman, has plot armor. I’d definitely get a petty pleasure out of seeing evil Superman smear a preptime Batman from one end of Crime Alley to the next, rubbing it in his face what a loser he is. But I don’t get that, I just get Supes committing war crimes against characters I don’t have any enmity towards, while the one guy I could get some petty fanboy pleasure seeing obliterated is nice and safe.
    Just how much of the Injustice comics did you actually read? Because they did exactly what you want.





    To say nothing of him making things even more difficult for Bruce by revealing his identity.

    Batman definitely tends to humiliate other heroes but Superman gets more than his fair share as well.

    And as I said, I don't think Superman is benefitting from these types of stories. But they at least try to mitigate the damage by showing him as a dangerous threat much of the time, often at the expense of the rest of the DCU. Notice how in Injustice, most of the world's superheroes take leave of their senses and join Regime Superman. Aquaman and Hal Jordan are even painted as cowards who get bullied into siding with him.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-26-2021 at 12:11 AM.

  9. #39
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You do know Superman still won the fight with Wonder Woman right?



    Just about any time Injustice Superman gets brought up.
    No he didn’t, Sinestro bailed him out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Bringing up a handful of instances where Injustice Superman lost doesn't make him a weakling. By this logic, any villain who has lost more times than won is a pushover (and Injustice Superman won more often than he lost).
    …yes? Yes that’s exactly what a villain who loses more often than they win is? Kylo Ren lost every single fight against Rey, it’s why people view him as a loser. “Saturday morning cartoon villain” aren’t treated as serious threats in America, as a non-American (iirc) perhaps you have a different perspective. Hey it’s valid if you enjoy Injustice, but this is not a franchise made with any love or respect for Superman. It’s built upon a base of showing him as less than Batman. I mean Jesus Injustice 2 literally starts with Bruce kicking his ass. NRS makes their contempt for Superman loud and proud.
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  10. #40
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I think its them wanting to have their cake and eat it too. They get to portray Batman as a plucky underdog while also getting to show off just how much Superman outclasses everybody else.
    Bro he literally gets made a chump of by a squirrel until Sinestro saves him. In the games Batman beats Superman down at the very start of I2.
    How many times has that actually happened? The one in most recent memory is BvS and not only is Bruce "winning" not presented as a good thing but the next movie has him getting thrashed along with the rest of the League by Superman.
    The same movies also build up Clark as the main villain alongside Darkseid, so you’ll forgive me if I wasn’t exactly jumping for joy knowing what was around the corner under Snyder. And Supes didn’t f***ing torture Bataffleck the way he got tortured, he was just a mindless zombie on auto attack. The Whedon confrontation was unironically better because at least Supes gave Bats the middle finger by mocking him and then tossing him aside like trash.
    Just how much of the Injustice comics did you actually read? Because they did exactly what you want.
    How much did you read? Because Alfred beating the **** out of him comes immediately after that scene and that is what everyone remembers and talks about. Even when Clark wins he still loses.
    To say nothing of him making things even more difficult for Bruce by revealing his identity.
    That literally did not even slow Bruce down he immediately just activated his prep time bull****
    Batman definitely tends to humiliate other heroes but Superman gets more than his fair share as well.
    Yeah we Superman fans were really jumping for joy when he murdered Billy. Do you seriously not get the difference between Batman’s victories and Superman’s? Batman’s come where he gets to kick everyones ass and be portrayed as good and righteous for doing so. Superman never even gets to kick Batman’s ass as the damn villain who is supposed to be triumphant at the start of the I1 game.
    And as I said, I don't think Superman is benefitting from these types of stories. But they at least try to mitigate the damage by showing him as a dangerous threat much of the time, often at the expense of the rest of the DCU. Notice how in Injustice, most of the world's superheroes take leave of their senses and join Regime Superman. Aquaman and Hal Jordan are even painted as cowards who get bullied into siding with him.
    And that sucks and is totally out of character? It makes no freaking sense for them to act like that? And Supes can’t even live up to his implied power status considering if he weren’t being bailed out constantly by Billy or Sinestro or others he would’ve lost long ago? There’s no reason to think that Clark could’ve taken them all, Diana alone could’ve kicked his ass. He’s constantly undermined even as a threat in contrast to Omni-Man. Omni-Man takes on the entire GG and wins. Supes can’t even take on Batman or Wonder Woman one on freaking one and win and gets humiliated by Alfred of all people.
    Last edited by Vordan; 07-26-2021 at 12:34 AM.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    No he didn’t, Sinestro bailed him out.
    So, when Batman gets to be saved by Alfred it doesn't count but Superman getting help from Sinestro (which he barely needed) makes him a weakling?

    …yes? Yes that’s exactly what a villain who loses more often than they win is?
    Which doesn't remote apply to Superman. It feels like your issue is that an evil Superman loses at all not how many times he does lose.

    Kylo Ren lost every single fight against Rey, it’s why people view him as a loser. “Saturday morning cartoon villain” aren’t treated as serious threats in America, as a non-American (iirc) perhaps you have a different perspective. Hey it’s valid if you enjoy Injustice, but this is not a franchise made with any love or respect for Superman. It’s built upon a base of showing him as less than Batman. I mean Jesus Injustice 2 literally starts with Bruce kicking his ass. NRS makes their contempt for Superman loud and proud.
    You know, not liking how NRS portrays Superman is one thing but accusing them of having contempt for him is just petty and unfounded.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Bro he literally gets made a chump of by a squirrel until Sinestro saves him. In the games Batman beats Superman down at the very start of I2.
    The same game has him save Batman from Brainiac and allows you to beat Batman by playing Superman.

    The same movies also build up Clark as the main villain alongside Darkseid, so you’ll forgive me if I wasn’t exactly jumping for joy knowing what was around the corner under Snyder. And Supes didn’t f***ing torture Bataffleck the way he got tortured, he was just a mindless zombie on auto attack. The Whedon confrontation was unironically better because at least Supes gave Bats the middle finger by mocking him and then tossing him aside like trash.
    Please leave the goal posts where they are.

    How much did you read? Because Alfred beating the **** out of him comes immediately after that scene and that is what everyone remembers and talks about. Even when Clark wins he still loses.
    See my other response.

    Yeah we Superman fans were really jumping for joy when he murdered Billy.
    I don't, were you? Between yours and Docha's comments that seems to be the type of thing people want an Evil Superman to do.

    Do you seriously not get the difference between Batman’s victories and Superman’s? Batman’s come where he gets to kick everyones ass and be portrayed as good and righteous for doing so. Superman never even gets to kick Batman’s ass as the damn villain who is supposed to be triumphant at the start of the I1 game.
    Again, moving the goalposts.

    And Supes can’t even live up to his implied power status considering if he weren’t being bailed out constantly by Billy or Sinestro or others he would’ve lost long ago?
    You know what, I'll just leave this link to a list of feats by Injustice Superman. If you still think he's a weakling after that, I don't know what more to say to you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthre...s_netherrealm/
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-26-2021 at 01:15 AM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    There's a natural pecking order among heroes. I know a lot of fans would prefer if the Justice League were the Round Table where there's no head or foot, and everyone is equal, but it really isn't. Yeah, Omni-Man eventually beat all of the Guardians, but it certainly wasn't easy.

    Anyway, more to the point, I feel like the whole point of having an EVIL SUPERMAN! is that if Superman went evil, he'd be terrifying. Omni-Man is because he proved it on the battlefield. Homelander just has this creepy vibe, but he does come across as terrifying to others, and his character feels like it's evolving into something more dangerous. IJ Superman... I dunno. Kind of reminds me of Shredder and Krang. Like, he should come across as dangerous, but for various reasons he doesn't.

    FWIW, I don't think this glut of Evil Supermen analogues is good. I'm just saying that at least they're getting one aspect of Superman correct. I think Superman should be immensely heroic and competent. Superman in the last three decades or so has been a character who's been dissected to a large degree about what his vulnerabilities are, etc. If you're going to make him evil, then you better at least make him hyper-competent.
    The natural pecking order of DC makes Batman the top dog among heroes, not Superman, and nothing good has ever come out of that stupid and not at all natural concept anyway. Superman shouldn't beat any of the other heavy hitters in the Justice League more often to a notable degree than they would beat him without special advantages or especially good match-ups, and the DC verse is luckily not Invincible or One Punch Man, or Irredeemable, or the Boys, and so on, if Superman for some reason i still don't understand must make others look bad he can screw off into his own verse like Batman probably should have long ago.

    Evil Superman shouldn't be terrifying in the same way like Homelander or even just Omni-Man, specifically because he should be still in a shared verse full of other powerful superheroes and supervillains with their own stories and not in a verse full of scrubs who just exist to make him look more powerful, the most terrifying should be that if even a character who is so immensely heroic like Superman should be can get corrupted others would probably follow.

    They typically don't get any aspect of Superman correct, because most of them are not even especially competent, but just overpowered in comparison to the rest of their verses which just exist for that purpose. Invincible at least makes Omni-Man competent, but also made him overpowered, because the entire verse is basically still just about the Viltrumites. To make an evil Superman competent is a good idea, to make anyone else look bad or underpowered in comparison is a bad idea, Bat-God is still the best example for that.
    Last edited by Rightoya; 07-26-2021 at 03:00 AM.

  14. #44
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Just about any time Injustice Superman gets brought up.
    That would be true if was willing to throw a parade when injustice superman wins.i am not.I am generally bored.I don't really care for injustice superman.Heck! Superman in general hasn't been for me.I think you have me confused with someone else.The character doesn't give me excitement unless in the hands of morrison or some instances here and there.

    i like superman as this general concept(i love invincible,my hero..etc) .Even the original one is more my bread and butter.as said,I am bored by pop culture superman. good or evil.Heck!the best that it gives like superman and lois just leaves me empty.Superman just doesn't to me(or should i say his writers don't)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    The natural pecking order of DC makes Batman the top dog among heroes, not Superman, and nothing good has ever come out of that stupid and not at all natural concept anyway. Superman shouldn't beat any of the other heavy hitters in the Justice League more often to a notable degree than they would beat him without special advantages or especially good match-ups, and the DC verse is luckily not Invincible or One Punch Man, or Irredeemable, or the Boys, and so on, if Superman for some reason i still don't understand must make others look bad he can screw off into his own verse like Batman probably should have long ago.
    .
    Actually,superman has'nt really ever been benefited by a "shared" universe..The character can tell his own stories much better aways.Same for ww and captain marvel..Also,omni man exists in mark grayson's world.This idea that shared universe is some great storytelling and non-shared universe don't have power structure,world building,scaling..etc is just not true..
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-26-2021 at 03:38 AM.
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  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post

    How many times has that actually happened? The one in most recent memory is BvS and not only is Bruce "winning" not presented as a good thing but the next movie has him getting thrashed along with the rest of the League by Superman.
    Yeah, the whole point of pre-Martha scene Batman in BvS was to show that he was a villain now, or on the verge of becoming one. It was plenty obvious in the theatrical release but far more evident in the complete edition. That's also why Doomsday's got introduced here, since the main battle antagonist for Superman (an antagonist which was always clearly outmatched and had to rely on Kryptonite to temporarily weaken Superman) had realized how wrong he was and was now helping him.

    The whole point of the Martha scene was, after all, to make Batman realize that he was just another Joe Chill at that point.

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