Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 234567 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 99
  1. #76
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    33,941

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I kind of don't understand why there's still a back and forth here. All I'm saying is that EVIL SUPERMAN! and analogues pop up a lot, and that if he's going to be portrayed as the equivalent of a video game final boss, then he better at least be portrayed as such in the story. Otherwise, if you keep picking on Superman as the ultimate bad guy but he gets slapped round repeatedly, he becomes an 80s cartoon villain (Shredder and Krang, Skeletor, Cobra Commander, etc.). I'm saying you can argue whether or not the execution of this was on point, but that general idea of making him a hypercompetent villain is absolutely the right move. This has nothing to do with Flash, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, or Aquaman because in comparison to Superman, they practically never get picked on as the go-to, de facto hero gone rogue and the ultimate bad guy.

    Also, I said in the beginning



    I said The Boys and Invincible have the positive contribution of saying Superman is on top of the food chain. You can call that a hot take or what have you, but in my opinion the way they approach that is good (if you accept a villainous Superman type, which I'm not fond of). It's like saying if you're going to go down, go down swinging (i.e. you're in a bad situation, but if you have to be in a bad situation, dictate the terms of how you want it to go down). And I said IJ Supes fails to do this, because they make him a weenie for a variety of reasons (not mentally tough like Batman, loses a bunch of fights).

    If you want me to caveat that first sentence to be more "top dog among commonly-known DC heroes," fine. Whatever. But this is such a simple statement that's been over-dissected and I feel like I'm being forced to repeat myself any time I have to address a reply.

    In short, the EVIL SUPERMAN! trope leaves you with two main options:

    1) Superman is such a d!ck and he when he goes rogue he seems like a nearly-unstoppable force.
    2) Superman is such a d!ck but when he goes rogue he's easily defeated but hangs around like a dingleberry because the plot demands it.

    If I had to pick one of those two options (I'd rather pick neither...), I pick 1) every time. And that's what The Boys and Invincible do, give us 1) and not 2). Injustice doesn't give us 1). They give us something closer to 2).

    Also, it's totally possible to say you like the way EVIL SUPERMAN! is treated, without liking the way the analagous WW, Flash, GL, AM, MM, etc. are treated, or you have mixed feelings, whatever.

    Anyway, that's my opinion which I feel like I've laid out several times now. You don't have to agree with it.
    With all due respect, it seems that what you want isn't hypercompetence so much as invincibility.

  2. #77
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,629

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    With all due respect, it seems that what you want isn't hypercompetence so much as invincibility.
    I want to see Homelander and Omni-man lose eventually. It just has to be done in a way other than plucky underdogs grit out a victory. Invincible did it well because Omni-man showed he can take damage, but they just haven't gotten the right plan yet. The Boys is fine because nobody outright goes up to Homelander and tries to outslug him. Everyone just goes out of the way to avoid fistfights with the guy because they know that's going to end badly.

    In this genre, it's not uncommon to like the big bads to seem nearly unbeatable. In fact, it doesn't even have to be this genre, e.g. guys like Gus Fring.

    EDIT: There's something to be said about incompetent villains, too. I didn't mind Kylo at first always failing. He didn't have to be surgical-precise like Darth Vader to be interesting, but I rather my EVIL SUPERMAN! analogues to be more Vader and less Kylo.

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    2,873

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I kind of don't understand why there's still a back and forth here. All I'm saying is that EVIL SUPERMAN! and analogues pop up a lot, and that if he's going to be portrayed as the equivalent of a video game final boss, then he better at least be portrayed as such in the story. Otherwise, if you keep picking on Superman as the ultimate bad guy but he gets slapped round repeatedly, he becomes an 80s cartoon villain (Shredder and Krang, Skeletor, Cobra Commander, etc.). I'm saying you can argue whether or not the execution of this was on point, but that general idea of making him a hypercompetent villain is absolutely the right move. This has nothing to do with Flash, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, or Aquaman because in comparison to Superman, they practically never get picked on as the go-to, de facto hero gone rogue and the ultimate bad guy.

    Also, I said in the beginning



    I said The Boys and Invincible have the positive contribution of saying Superman is on top of the food chain. You can call that a hot take or what have you, but in my opinion the way they approach that is good (if you accept a villainous Superman type, which I'm not fond of). It's like saying if you're going to go down, go down swinging (i.e. you're in a bad situation, but if you have to be in a bad situation, dictate the terms of how you want it to go down). And I said IJ Supes fails to do this, because they make him a weenie for a variety of reasons (not mentally tough like Batman, loses a bunch of fights).

    If you want me to caveat that first sentence to be more "top dog among commonly-known DC heroes," fine. Whatever. But this is such a simple statement that's been over-dissected and I feel like I'm being forced to repeat myself any time I have to address a reply.

    In short, the EVIL SUPERMAN! trope leaves you with two main options:

    1) Superman is such a d!ck and he when he goes rogue he seems like a nearly-unstoppable force.
    2) Superman is such a d!ck but when he goes rogue he's easily defeated but hangs around like a dingleberry because the plot demands it.

    If I had to pick one of those two options (I'd rather pick neither...), I pick 1) every time. And that's what The Boys and Invincible do, give us 1) and not 2). Injustice doesn't give us 1). They give us something closer to 2).

    Also, it's totally possible to say you like the way EVIL SUPERMAN! is treated, without liking the way the analagous WW, Flash, GL, AM, MM, etc. are treated, or you have mixed feelings, whatever.

    Anyway, that's my opinion which I feel like I've laid out several times now. You don't have to agree with it.
    WW gets used as a punching bag to make other characters look good very often. And specially to make SM look good.

  4. #79
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    2,873

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfan90 View Post
    No, she had him beaten and he actually threatened to kill her before that.




    It was just to humiliate the character.
    WW still wass portrayed as the weaklink. She got stomped by hercules. While shazam beat him and SM killed him. Injusice WW is a weaklink. One of the most mediocre versions of the character power wise.

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,629

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    WW still wass portrayed as the weaklink. She got stomped by hercules. While shazam beat him and SM killed him. Injusice WW is a weaklink. One of the most mediocre versions of the character power wise.
    I am in no way defending Injustice, but the situation you just described was WW > Superman > Shazam > Hercules > WW. That's an RPS-like situation with no clear frontrunner or bottom-feeder.

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    2,873

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I am in no way defending Injustice, but the situation you just described was WW > Superman > Shazam > Hercules > WW. That's an RPS-like situation with no clear frontrunner or bottom-feeder.
    Not really. Because the moment SM unleashed his potential in that issue he killed hercules who WW couldn't do **** against. So SM>shazam>hercules>WW. As usual WW is thrown under the bus in favor of the male characters.

  7. #82
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,629

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    Not really. Because the moment SM unleashed his potential in that issue he killed hercules who WW couldn't do **** against. So SM>shazam>hercules>WW. As usual WW is thrown under the bus in favor of the male characters.
    So why aren't you including WW > Superman in the chain? Because you're saying Superman held back or something like that? Just wondering.

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    2,873

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    So why aren't you including WW > Superman in the chain? Because you're saying Superman held back or something like that? Just wondering.
    What chain. injustice WW never was above SM or even on par with him. The evidence is right there.

  9. #84
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    15,226

    Default

    Did Superman get stomped by Wonder Woman before or after he defeated Hercules?

    Because if it's after, even after Hercules defeated WW, I'm not understanding the mental gymnastics we have to perform to come to the conclusion that WW is too weak while we have pages of her knocking him unconscious and breaking his arm.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,629

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    What chain. injustice WW never was above SM or even on par with him. The evidence is right there.
    I mean, she beat him in a fight. I'm just wondering why that's being discounted here. The posted scan even has a narrative box describing her as "the one person who could finish him."

  11. #86
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    15,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I mean, she beat him in a fight. I'm just wondering why that's being discounted here. The posted scan even has a narrative box describing her as "the one person who could finish him."
    I suspect it's being discounted because she's not winning 24/7 and being treated as the definitive most powerful superhero ever the way some people believe Superman is treated. So even good feats don't count.

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    2,873

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I suspect it's being discounted because she's not winning 24/7 and being treated as the definitive most powerful superhero ever the way some people believe Superman is treated. So even good feats don't count.
    She got stomped by hercules right after the SM fight. Same hercules shazam defeated and later SM killed in that same comic. So she was never shown as equal to SM let alone above. The moment SM unleashed his power. He made quick work of hercules. Who WW couldn't do **** against.

  13. #88
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    15,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    She got stomped by hercules right after the SM fight. Same hercules shazam defeated and later SM killed in that same comic. So she was never shown as equal to SM let alone above. The moment SM unleashed his power. He made quick work of hercules. Who WW couldn't do **** against.
    Then why did she break Superman's arm and why doesn't that matter for anything?

  14. #89
    Incredible Member Superfan90's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    672

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    Not really. Because the moment SM unleashed his potential in that issue he killed hercules who WW couldn't do **** against. So SM>shazam>hercules>WW. As usual WW is thrown under the bus in favor of the male characters.
    Hercules oneshot koed Superman. Superman killed him by a sneak attack after Shazam had already beaten him.





    Not sure how Superman looks better here. Its the whole theme of the year four that Superman can't do anything by himself.

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,220

    Default

    I thought Homelander/Omniman kind of showed why Injustice Superman is the buffoon that he is. An evil Superman without the buffonery is actually quite scary, especially if the evil part is a discreet part of his personality. Injustice isn't really about evil Superman, it's a typical dystopic future power fantasy about a resistance vs a regime.
    Rules are for lesser men, Charlie - Grand Pa Joe ~ Willy Wonka & Chocolate Factory

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •