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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Kent Nelson View Post
    Writers trying to be original by killing off Kent Nelson so a young punk with no training wields the mighty artifacts of Fate... DUH and F**M ME! Again?
    Yes. I'm a total fan of legacy, and of 'new' characters like Wally-as-Flash or Kyle or John-as-Green Lantern, but good grief, does every single legacy for Kent Nelson have to utterly suck, or what?

    Sidelining or replacing an older established character is *already* a risky move, replacing them with someone that explicitly is terrible / incompetent at the job is *worse.* Give the damn helmet to Nommo/Dr. Mist or Madame Xanadu or something, if you must replace Kent.

  2. #62
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    Talking of Dr. Fate, is is just me or turns Nabu evil in basically every story were Dr. Fate gets a substantial role ...

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Talking of Dr. Fate, is is just me or turns Nabu evil in basically every story were Dr. Fate gets a substantial role ...
    Either that or Fate ends up arguing with Nabu and winding up useless.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Either that or Fate ends up arguing with Nabu and winding up useless.
    Until they resolve their differences to save the day from whatever magical doomsday event is happening that day lol.

    My personal pet peeve is the Amazon's being invaded and/or used as cannon fodder. And Arthur's perpetual revolving throne antics.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Talking of Dr. Fate, is is just me or turns Nabu evil in basically every story were Dr. Fate gets a substantial role ...
    Nabu is more 'out of touch with human morality and willing to do horrific, magical things for the greater good or for the balance(whatever that means)' than outright evil.

  6. #66
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    fuck it, I'll bite: black male hero minimizes and perpetually doubts himself/his competence, typically in relation to his white peers or mentor.
    SIGNAL (Duke Thomas) is DC's secret shonen protagonist! his fandom wikia
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  7. #67
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I think someone's already mentioned the Amazons being "kill all men on sight" but I'll throw that one out there.

  8. #68
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    At this point, anything to do with the multiverse, or any cosmic crisis where the end result is "continuity changed slightly". Any story where a character begins to remember things from a past continuity or timeline. Any story where a character travels from an alternate timeline/universe to the main one to help or fight the heroes.

    We get it. Multiple versions of characters exist. It's not that interesting. Even nerds don't care about it anymore. Cancel Infinite Frontier and never mention the multiverse again. The DCU has literally never been more boring than it is right now, and I can't believe I'm saying that. Tell stories about real, human things that matter.

  9. #69
    Incredible Member wonder39's Avatar
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    The endless continuity shifting yet temporary cuz a new event is around the corner but don't get used to
    that cuz another is coming next year!


    Seriously... DDC fixed things, just build off of that.

  10. #70
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    I'll agree with everyone saying "stories about continuity".

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Absolutely. He was just doing the right thing because he could. Because (he believed) it was the right thing to do. No trauma needed. As soon as he realized he had the abilities, he wanted to use them for good (and the comic gave him the idea of how). But I think it's fair to say he was also already doing good in the world as a police scientist.
    I'll admit I'm a bit biased on this subject, since I'm a fan of the CW show, and most of the Barry Allen comics I've read are the New 52 and early Rebirth runs, Flashpoint and Geoff John's Flash Rebirth (though I have read some of the early Silver Age stuff too).

    But honestly, I'm a fan of the ''dead mother'' retcon. The idea of a hero's arch-nemesis hating him so much that he uses time-travel to retroactively make his life miserable, while ironically still helping shape him into the hero he was destined to be, is a neat one. The show of course took it a step further by having Thawne literally turn Barry into the Flash.

    I like the idea of Barry becoming a forensics scientist in order to one day exonerate his father, and also to ensure that no other innocent is wrongfully accused of a crime.

    I respect the fact that a lot of long-time fans hate this retcon. But here's the thing - the original Barry Allen was a pretty bland plain vanilla character. He was the herald of the Silver Age who didn't really grow out of the Silver Age. Yes the powers and the rogues and the stories were all cool, but the character lacked any real depth. Yes I know the guy who ''just wants to do the right thing'' has a certain appeal, but contemporary audiences (by which I'm not just talking 2021, but even 1986) demand more.

    So instead of getting a modern reinvention, like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman etc. Barry Allen was relegated to backstory, and the younger, cockier and more flawed Wally West became the 'modern' Flash. Barry got to be the saint of the superhero world with all his goodness for goodness' sake.

    When he came back though, and became the current Flash again, he needed to be more than a resurrected saint. Thus...the retcon.

    Here's the thing though - I don't think the retcon needs to make Barry angst-ridden and totally consumed by his mother's murder. I think Barry needs to be someone who's taken this tragic event from his past and used it to grow stronger and even more optimistic about the positive change he can effect in the world - as a CSI and as the Flash. Flashpoint is the exception, the one time there was a chink in his armor, and considering the circumstances, a pretty justified one.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    I'll admit I'm a bit biased on this subject, since I'm a fan of the CW show, and most of the Barry Allen comics I've read are the New 52 and early Rebirth runs, Flashpoint and Geoff John's Flash Rebirth (though I have read some of the early Silver Age stuff too).

    But honestly, I'm a fan of the ''dead mother'' retcon. The idea of a hero's arch-nemesis hating him so much that he uses time-travel to retroactively make his life miserable, while ironically still helping shape him into the hero he was destined to be, is a neat one. The show of course took it a step further by having Thawne literally turn Barry into the Flash.

    I like the idea of Barry becoming a forensics scientist in order to one day exonerate his father, and also to ensure that no other innocent is wrongfully accused of a crime.

    I respect the fact that a lot of long-time fans hate this retcon. But here's the thing - the original Barry Allen was a pretty bland plain vanilla character. He was the herald of the Silver Age who didn't really grow out of the Silver Age. Yes the powers and the rogues and the stories were all cool, but the character lacked any real depth. Yes I know the guy who ''just wants to do the right thing'' has a certain appeal, but contemporary audiences (by which I'm not just talking 2021, but even 1986) demand more.

    So instead of getting a modern reinvention, like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman etc. Barry Allen was relegated to backstory, and the younger, cockier and more flawed Wally West became the 'modern' Flash. Barry got to be the saint of the superhero world with all his goodness for goodness' sake.

    When he came back though, and became the current Flash again, he needed to be more than a resurrected saint. Thus...the retcon.

    Here's the thing though - I don't think the retcon needs to make Barry angst-ridden and totally consumed by his mother's murder. I think Barry needs to be someone who's taken this tragic event from his past and used it to grow stronger and even more optimistic about the positive change he can effect in the world - as a CSI and as the Flash. Flashpoint is the exception, the one time there was a chink in his armor, and considering the circumstances, a pretty justified one.
    Let's agree to disagree.
    I'm of the belief it took something fundamental from Barry's characterisation.
    In regards to Barry being bland, I think Mark Waid showed any writer worth their salt can write a multi faceted interesting Barry Allen (See JLA Year One).
    Yes, the retcon made Eobard a truly evil bastard, and a great counterpoint to the hero, but it changed Barry into just another super-hero who needed a traumatic event to inspire him to do the right thing.
    That's not who my Barry is.
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
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  13. #73
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post

    But honestly, I'm a fan of the ''dead mother'' retcon. The idea of a hero's arch-nemesis hating him so much that he uses time-travel to retroactively make his life miserable, while ironically still helping shape him into the hero he was destined to be, is a neat one.
    It works pretty well as a temporary storyline, not a full on backstory for Barry Allen. The dead mother routine can only be usef for a couple of stories. If I got my hands on Barry Allen I would make changes to him too, but by focusing on what makes him a unique character, not by adding a lame old cliche/ trope.

    I like the idea of Barry becoming a forensics scientist in order to one day exonerate his father, and also to ensure that no other innocent is wrongfully accused of a crime.
    that's a pretty good idea...for Matt Murdoch.

    But I respect the fact that you knew this was gonna be controversial and still expressed yourself.
    Last edited by Alpha; 07-29-2021 at 03:11 AM.

  14. #74
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    I'll admit I'm a bit biased on this subject, since I'm a fan of the CW show, and most of the Barry Allen comics I've read are the New 52 and early Rebirth runs, Flashpoint and Geoff John's Flash Rebirth (though I have read some of the early Silver Age stuff too).

    But honestly, I'm a fan of the ''dead mother'' retcon. The idea of a hero's arch-nemesis hating him so much that he uses time-travel to retroactively make his life miserable, while ironically still helping shape him into the hero he was destined to be, is a neat one. The show of course took it a step further by having Thawne literally turn Barry into the Flash.

    I like the idea of Barry becoming a forensics scientist in order to one day exonerate his father, and also to ensure that no other innocent is wrongfully accused of a crime.

    I respect the fact that a lot of long-time fans hate this retcon. But here's the thing - the original Barry Allen was a pretty bland plain vanilla character. He was the herald of the Silver Age who didn't really grow out of the Silver Age. Yes the powers and the rogues and the stories were all cool, but the character lacked any real depth. Yes I know the guy who ''just wants to do the right thing'' has a certain appeal, but contemporary audiences (by which I'm not just talking 2021, but even 1986) demand more.

    So instead of getting a modern reinvention, like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman etc. Barry Allen was relegated to backstory, and the younger, cockier and more flawed Wally West became the 'modern' Flash. Barry got to be the saint of the superhero world with all his goodness for goodness' sake.

    When he came back though, and became the current Flash again, he needed to be more than a resurrected saint. Thus...the retcon.

    Here's the thing though - I don't think the retcon needs to make Barry angst-ridden and totally consumed by his mother's murder. I think Barry needs to be someone who's taken this tragic event from his past and used it to grow stronger and even more optimistic about the positive change he can effect in the world - as a CSI and as the Flash. Flashpoint is the exception, the one time there was a chink in his armor, and considering the circumstances, a pretty justified one.
    It also made Barry unique because he had no real reason to be as selflessly heroic as he was. No dead parents or tragic origin. Just a good man given the chance to do something for others and he gave it everything he had.

    When creation was on the line, who stepped up and gave it all up alongside Supergirl to save every life in infinite universes? No orphan billionaires, orphan test pilots, monarchs or princesses.

    It was the one guy who had no reason to be there other than he was a decent person. In the end, it was the comic book fan with a mundane background that made the difference and saved the multiverse.

    Barry's long form narrative turned into the ultimate metaphor for the influence you, the reader, could have on the world by just getting involved. The world doesn't need billionaire playboys or last sons of a doomed planet, it just needs decent people to care enough to step up.

    I find it strange to think audiences need a character to have a selfish motivation to see people in need and want to help them. That the simple act of decency isn't enough, it must be something from within them that needs to be satisfied as opposed to trying to help someone who needs it.

    But hey, what's that matter when we can have another guy with dead parents on the Justice League to keep Bruce, Clark, Hal, Arthur, J'onn and sometimes Diana, Ollie, Dinah and many more company?
    Last edited by Robanker; 07-29-2021 at 02:54 AM.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Nabu is more 'out of touch with human morality and willing to do horrific, magical things for the greater good or for the balance(whatever that means)' than outright evil.
    Call it like you want, but I still think it is over done at this point.

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