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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzika_Sowa View Post
    The idea to undo Sins Past by making Gabriel and Stacy a genetic clones/hybrids between Gwen and Norman is good. It's also in character for Norman, to lie about this stuff and torment Peter. The foundation is there with Mysterio-therapist implanting fake memories.

    If they undo Sins Past? That's fine with me. But I want to know about Kindred and OMD Harry. The story moves so slowly... And I'm afraid it's going to be like Last Remains. Please Spencer, deliver this time.
    I mean the big reveals for OMD stuff will be in 84.It's an ultra size.
    The Doc Ock Sinister War stuff will be in Sinister war.(Issue 2 coming next week is supposed to have something very big)
    ASM is what I'm thinking all this Harry Carlie Mysterio stuff will happen.I mean use this to take care of Sins past and I'll be a happy boi

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzika_Sowa View Post
    The idea to undo Sins Past by making Gabriel and Stacy a genetic clones/hybrids between Gwen and Norman is good. It's also in character for Norman, to lie about this stuff and torment Peter. The foundation is there with Mysterio-therapist implanting fake memories.

    If they undo Sins Past? That's fine with me. But I want to know about Kindred and OMD Harry. The story moves so slowly... And I'm afraid it's going to be like Last Remains. Please Spencer, deliver this time.
    The problem with this plan/theory (that I like and has merit), you need Mysterio to be collaborating with Norman and Harry individually, and probably without Norman knowing it. That seems a bit problematic. It can be waved away and we'll mostly ignore the inconsistency, but it's a thing.

    Somewhat related, why would the Jackal work with Norman on this plot since Norman killed the (wildly unhealthy) object of his affection? It's been a very long time, but I thought during the Clone Saga Norman's manipulations did NOT involve actual collaboration with Warren . . .
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    The problem with this plan/theory (that I like and has merit), you need Mysterio to be collaborating with Norman and Harry individually, and probably without Norman knowing it. That seems a bit problematic. It can be waved away and we'll mostly ignore the inconsistency, but it's a thing.

    Somewhat related, why would the Jackal work with Norman on this plot since Norman killed the (wildly unhealthy) object of his affection? It's been a very long time, but I thought during the Clone Saga Norman's manipulations did NOT involve actual collaboration with Warren . . .
    I mean, if it takes away Sins past no one cares.
    Also they can do mephisto or chameleon or mysterio stuff to take care of any inconsistencies.

  4. #34
    Incredible Member xpyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    The problem with this plan/theory (that I like and has merit), you need Mysterio to be collaborating with Norman and Harry individually, and probably without Norman knowing it. That seems a bit problematic. It can be waved away and we'll mostly ignore the inconsistency, but it's a thing.

    Somewhat related, why would the Jackal work with Norman on this plot since Norman killed the (wildly unhealthy) object of his affection? It's been a very long time, but I thought during the Clone Saga Norman's manipulations did NOT involve actual collaboration with Warren . . .
    The 1997 one shot Osborn Journal hints that Miles Warren wasn't aware he was working for Norman. Norman sent a Scrier to deal with Warren and not once does Warren make mention of knowing he is working for Norman.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by xpyred View Post
    The 1997 one shot Osborn Journal hints that Miles Warren wasn't aware he was working for Norman. Norman sent a Scrier to deal with Warren and not once does Warren make mention of knowing he is working for Norman.
    Thanks, that's what I was thinking of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    I mean, if it takes away Sins past no one cares.
    Also they can do mephisto or chameleon or mysterio stuff to take care of any inconsistencies.
    Look, I don't think it'll be the end of the world if the reason doesn't make LOTS of sense, but it should make some - if Spencer's run is going to live or die on the last double arc sticking the landing, the plot should be somewhat sensical. If the whole point was just to undo Sins Past, I could do that without 70+ issues of lead up (I know his run has done other things and I've broadly enjoyed it, so this isn't a hater take, but Kindred needs to have done *something*).

    To be more explicit, if Spencer is going to retcon Sins Past into a ruse to torment Peter rather than a straightforward story, let's examine the elements.

    Peter being the target of the ruse makes sense for either Norman or Harry, although it's an entirely different kind of gross for each of them. However, since they've both done some pretty awful things in the past, I think we can gloss over that without too much reflection.

    Sarah and Gabriel are the most important part of the ruse, in that they have to be convincing to any reasonable level of interrogation Pete has at his disposal (at a time when he was on the Avengers!!), so clone, LMD, or Chameleon, but we need to remember Miles Warren would need to be part of a cloning plot and there's no reason for him to go in on this (especially if the plot is run by Norman). LMD or whatever we're calling Peter's parents is either the most epic callback of all time or lazy writing, so let's go with Chameleons. That part is easy enough as that plot element was just introduced, but also has other complications.

    MJ claims to have known about the affair. We have evidence of Mysterio implanting memories in her, so let's stick with that.

    Now, we get to the real problem: who is the Mastermind of this plot? If it's Norman, then we have (a) both Norman and Harry using Mysterio to mess with memories in MJ and (b) both Norman and Harry using Chameleon as the provider of fake family members (Sins Past, Peter's parents), presumably without Norman knowing that he's copying Harry's schemes*. That's again a high level of family unoriginality. And while I can obviously buy that Norman would do this to Peter, it's kind of tricky timing in that he couldn't have started this scheme while MJ and Peter were separated, nor would he have started it when he was trying to recruit Peter to be his heir, so there's a very tight window for doing something undeniable complicated to be just super petty.

    If the Mastermind of Sins Past is Harry/Kindred, the Mysterio and Chameleon coincidences fall by the wayside and most of the plot actually holds together much better. BND/Clone Harry (whoever) is still overseas in hiding, so he can neither confirm or deny anything he might know about Gwen's time in Europe. Kindred isn't involved in a ton of other plots at the time, and Mysterio reappears just after Sins Past so all that kind of hangs together. The catch here is that Norman has alluded to the events in the past, so it's necessary to explain how Norman came to have an implanted memory about his time with Gwen (and again, let's not spend too much time thinking about the fact that his son was the one who had it implanted).

    *if we're taking it for granted that BND Harry is a clone or some such Norman created, Norman can't be aware of Kindred's machinations before at least Big Time started or a ton of BND stuff makes no sense - this argument can be rendered null if BND Harry is some sort of fetch Mephisto created, but that's also . . . problematic for other reasons.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    Thanks, that's what I was thinking of.



    Look, I don't think it'll be the end of the world if the reason doesn't make LOTS of sense, but it should make some - if Spencer's run is going to live or die on the last double arc sticking the landing, the plot should be somewhat sensical. If the whole point was just to undo Sins Past, I could do that without 70+ issues of lead up (I know his run has done other things and I've broadly enjoyed it, so this isn't a hater take, but Kindred needs to have done *something*).

    To be more explicit, if Spencer is going to retcon Sins Past into a ruse to torment Peter rather than a straightforward story, let's examine the elements.

    Peter being the target of the ruse makes sense for either Norman or Harry, although it's an entirely different kind of gross for each of them. However, since they've both done some pretty awful things in the past, I think we can gloss over that without too much reflection.

    Sarah and Gabriel are the most important part of the ruse, in that they have to be convincing to any reasonable level of interrogation Pete has at his disposal (at a time when he was on the Avengers!!), so clone, LMD, or Chameleon, but we need to remember Miles Warren would need to be part of a cloning plot and there's no reason for him to go in on this (especially if the plot is run by Norman). LMD or whatever we're calling Peter's parents is either the most epic callback of all time or lazy writing, so let's go with Chameleons. That part is easy enough as that plot element was just introduced, but also has other complications.

    MJ claims to have known about the affair. We have evidence of Mysterio implanting memories in her, so let's stick with that.

    Now, we get to the real problem: who is the Mastermind of this plot? If it's Norman, then we have (a) both Norman and Harry using Mysterio to mess with memories in MJ and (b) both Norman and Harry using Chameleon as the provider of fake family members (Sins Past, Peter's parents), presumably without Norman knowing that he's copying Harry's schemes*. That's again a high level of family unoriginality. And while I can obviously buy that Norman would do this to Peter, it's kind of tricky timing in that he couldn't have started this scheme while MJ and Peter were separated, nor would he have started it when he was trying to recruit Peter to be his heir, so there's a very tight window for doing something undeniable complicated to be just super petty.

    If the Mastermind of Sins Past is Harry/Kindred, the Mysterio and Chameleon coincidences fall by the wayside and most of the plot actually holds together much better. BND/Clone Harry (whoever) is still overseas in hiding, so he can neither confirm or deny anything he might know about Gwen's time in Europe. Kindred isn't involved in a ton of other plots at the time, and Mysterio reappears just after Sins Past so all that kind of hangs together. The catch here is that Norman has alluded to the events in the past, so it's necessary to explain how Norman came to have an implanted memory about his time with Gwen (and again, let's not spend too much time thinking about the fact that his son was the one who had it implanted).

    *if we're taking it for granted that BND Harry is a clone or some such Norman created, Norman can't be aware of Kindred's machinations before at least Big Time started or a ton of BND stuff makes no sense - this argument can be rendered null if BND Harry is some sort of fetch Mephisto created, but that's also . . . problematic for other reasons.
    I agree.But they can easily explain most of it and even if we have a couple things that don't make complete sense I don't think anyone would care

  7. #37
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    The clone thing... I don't think Norman would need the Jackals help for that. I remember in the Mackie/Byrne era (Ugh) a Green Goblin terrorized Liz Osborn that was revealed to be a Harry clone created by Norman, and I believe the Jackal had nothing to do with it.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by t-spider View Post
    The clone thing... I don't think Norman would need the Jackals help for that. I remember in the Mackie/Byrne era (Ugh) a Green Goblin terrorized Liz Osborn that was revealed to be a Harry clone created by Norman, and I believe the Jackal had nothing to do with it.
    If it's the story I am thinking about, those were robots.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by t-spider View Post
    The clone thing... I don't think Norman would need the Jackals help for that. I remember in the Mackie/Byrne era (Ugh) a Green Goblin terrorized Liz Osborn that was revealed to be a Harry clone created by Norman, and I believe the Jackal had nothing to do with it.
    Technically, it was an artificially engineered being that could take on different faces, having assumed Harry's at one point, but was ultimately a (literal) blank slate with no real face or true identity of its own. Funny enough, that fifth Green Goblin was originally supposed to be a brainwashed Phil Urich, whom Norman would have used as a disposable pawn in revenge for Phil's "misuse" of the Goblin identity and equipment, back when Phil was trying to be a heroic Green Goblin. That, however, got vetoed for being too mean-spirited or something like that, although as of the end of Dan Slott's run, Norman killed Phil (who had long since ceased to be a hero), anyway, so . . .
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  10. #40
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    You know? The whole thing around Kindred just got a lot more ilogical.

    I mean, Mysterio's death happened in 1999, and his resurrection (thanks to Kindred) came at 2006. But these events came BEFORE One More Day (2007). So, if Kindred is really the "original" Harry Osborn, how is it possible he's trying to torture Peter by the OMD if he was already plotting against Peter even before that?

    This doesn't have any sense at all!

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    You know? The whole thing around Kindred just got a lot more ilogical.

    I mean, Mysterio's death happened in 1999, and his resurrection (thanks to Kindred) came at 2006. But these events came BEFORE One More Day (2007). So, if Kindred is really the "original" Harry Osborn, how is it possible he's trying to torture Peter by the OMD if he was already plotting against Peter even before that?

    This doesn't have any sense at all!
    Time travel logic never makes sense, but I think this is probably how it "works" (if Kindred's creation really is tied to OMD, which, \_(ツ)_/ after about 90 issues)

    Timeline A (pre-OMD, Peter and MJ marry in the annual, all events happen as shown in the comics)
    Timeline B (post-OMD, OMIT explains why they didn't marry, minor changes to the timeline abound after that, it is unclear if one of those changes is BND Harry or if we're to assume however he exists in Timeline B would have happened in Timeline A. Time travel is nonsense)

    In Timeline A, Mysterio is resurrected by whatever means Peter David explained in FNSM (I think it was broadly "God frowns on suicide victims" which is . . .a choice).

    In Timeline B, Mephisto has made slight changes from Timeline A which cause the smallest number of deviations from Timeline A, as seen in OMIT. One other consequence, though, is the creation of Kindred, who assumes the role of Mysterio resurrector. Essentially, this issue serves (in part) as the equivalent to OMIT for Mysterio and all the changes made to his life/death/unlife from Timeline A to B. I imagine one of ASM 72-74 will functionally do the same for Kindred/Harry/BND Harry, as well - just lay out all the changes to Timeline A as a result of The Deal.

    Even though time travel is insane and never makes sense, most storytellers stick with the opposite of the butterfly effect - minimal changes to the timeline result in the same broad strokes occurring after those changes so that readers don't feel too many stories unhappened.
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  12. #42
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    By my count a total of 16 posters made a comment on this thread. Completely unscientific but for the build up to Spencer's end of run and Kindred conclusion, seems like a small number. Am I wrong? Really hoping the answer is yes

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey5640 View Post
    By my count a total of 16 posters made a comment on this thread. Completely unscientific but for the build up to Spencer's end of run and Kindred conclusion, seems like a small number. Am I wrong? Really hoping the answer is yes
    could be just guest not wanting to comment as well or make an account to comment. Plus this run been dissected and talked about especially since the reveal that kindred is Harry. I think its just exhaustion of topics. Like on the this run alone OMD been talked about probably 500 times give or take.
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

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  14. #44
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey5640 View Post
    By my count a total of 16 posters made a comment on this thread. Completely unscientific but for the build up to Spencer's end of run and Kindred conclusion, seems like a small number. Am I wrong? Really hoping the answer is yes
    To be fair, Sinister War 1-3 and the ASM issues around it aren't likely to be that interesting in the grand scheme of things. It's just moving the final pieces into place while we speculate (which is pretty much all we got this issue).

    The one or two BIG reveal issues at the very end will finally answer all our questions, will/won't seismically change Spider-man's continuity and inform or solidify many people's opinions on Spencer's run as a whole. At this point we're all just waiting for the ending.

    Btw, I'm guessing Stromm's key will be to the building where 'real' Harry and Carlie are being kept.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    To be fair, Sinister War 1-3 and the ASM issues around it aren't likely to be that interesting in the grand scheme of things. It's just moving the final pieces into place while we speculate (which is pretty much all we got this issue).

    The one or two BIG reveal issues at the very end will finally answer all our questions, will/won't seismically change Spider-man's continuity and inform or solidify many people's opinions on Spencer's run as a whole. At this point we're all just waiting for the ending.

    Btw, I'm guessing Stromm's key will be to the building where 'real' Harry and Carlie are being kept.
    There will definitely be a lot of stuff in these issues.OMD is the main issue but not the only one by far.

    And it hurts so bad knowing that when we do get the reveals of OMD in 84 it will get sidelined for Beyond so we won't even get Peter and MJ dealing with the aftermath smh

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