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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    You make a great point.

    I was not aware of Heralds and the gaslighting. I just don't/can't read everything anymore.

    I agree, he needs to be ~smarting~ for a while after this.

    But it really brings up the main problem:
    Writers are stuck with keeping him immature. Or Sue too motherly. Or Thing to self-pitying

    etc.

    But writers or some, seem to destroy characters because they don't like them and just want to destroy them:

    Bendis and Scarlet Witch.
    Editorial mandates must keep the main FF from something so severe, but I don't know what the writer's glitch is that they can't overcome that handicap and find a better story to write.

    The FF is about relationships, and certainly I can remember/coming from an age, where you always knew someone who was always in and out of love, couldn't keep a stable relationship.
    It's okay to have that kind of character, but it still needs a better bit of writing to keep it compelling.
    If Johnny's problems are committment, we deserve a better story to explain what is really going on.
    This is why, of course, the gay or bi angle, as for some of us, that may be either the most obvious way to go.
    I don't know myself, but it just now strikes me that earlier in this run

    Johnny was upset by Iceman's presence as a FF member... now maybe that is where I see a story going.

    And wouldn't that be revolutionary? Johnny comes out and begins a relationship with Bobby.
    Just big NO to that last one. IMO it does a disservice to a character to make such a radical change this late in the game.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    The FF is about relationships, and certainly I can remember/coming from an age, where you always knew someone who was always in and out of love, couldn't keep a stable relationship.
    It's okay to have that kind of character, but it still needs a better bit of writing to keep it compelling.
    If Johnny's problems are committment, we deserve a better story to explain what is really going on.
    This is why, of course, the gay or bi angle, as for some of us, that may be either the most obvious way to go.
    I don't know myself, but it just now strikes me that earlier in this run

    Johnny was upset by Iceman's presence as a FF member... now maybe that is where I see a story going.

    And wouldn't that be revolutionary? Johnny comes out and begins a relationship with Bobby.
    I'd rather not have an asshole who cheats and can't commit be any form of LGBT representation.

  3. #48
    Fantastic Member Writerblog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coatl View Post
    WTF with this history?

    First of all, Doom has stated that his interest in Victorious was a Fatherly one, something that has some sense for the damn AGE GAP betwen them, so the simple fact that he wanted to marry her instead of ADOPT her is creepy itself. He alredy has an adopted son (who here is not even metioned) he can easily have another one and put her in charge. Damn! he is DOOM he was able to put Riri, a complete foreing in charge, BECAUSE HE IS DOOM!!!, and his word is law. Well then he can put in charge a National symbol and a war hero. All the marriage was creepy and unnecesary.

    Second, Victorious jumping in bed with enemies of Doom is stupid. She who is madly loyal to Doom. Not even her own mother can change that. buuut some hormones can? She is not a horny teen unable to think straight after being called cute, for the MOST PROBLEMATIC guy avaliable. She is not a rebelius daughter trying to date what daddy hates to make him mad and create drama. She is a warrior, who can think straight and say "yes you are kind of cute, but there is no way I would have sex with you because that would be pretty problematic" She is pretty and admired she has no need to fall for a manchild who is basically married and become a cheater.

    Talking about cheaters, Jhonny Storm here is actually despicable. I don't like Sky, I found her unnecesary, unnoriginal and a religious fanatic. But Jhonny knew that and still acepted all the soulbound stuff, who is bassically a mariage but far more deeper. Took her away of her planet, family and friends and put her in his team to seal the deal. He accepted the marriage.
    But now that she is totally isolatated and depends on him to adapt into an alien planet, he just ignores her, allows his ex insult her, and at the first chance cheats on her. What an ass.

    Back in Victorius brain damage, she not just has sex with a problematic and married manchild, who she has seen like three times, but for some reason maddly dessires. She acepts Doom marriage propose while having him still in the bed. That's bad, ok but has solution, she could have told Jhonny to shut up and forget all about her, no one has to know. She wants to be honest? FINE, she can talk Doom in private, even if that means pausing the wedding a minute. What level of braing damage has to have a person to admit having sex with his enemy IN FRONT OF ALL THE PUBLIC AND CAMERAS!!! looks like she were trying to cause the most humillaton and damage posible, in a dude who is famous for his pride and vengefull nature. She knows him, she should know that hurting his pride in public was the worse idea ever.

    At the end Jhonny is trapped in supernova form (again), Victorius has to use a mask (maybe a gag could have been more usefull) because Doom "dosen't want to see her face" but other ways their relationship hasn't changed, and Doom hates the F4 again.

    So basically they caused braing damage in the cast for no reason, nothing changed at the end.
    You re right, this is all bad writing. This makes Johnny look really bad, he accepted a relationship and then on first opportuity cheat on the woman.

    Een if the intention is make him learn a lesson on the hard way, slott could had found a better way

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Just big NO to that last one. IMO it does a disservice to a character to make such a radical change this late in the game.
    It's really too late
    Iceman was in a good spot for that, Johnny isn't.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Writerblog View Post
    You re right, this is all bad writing. This makes Johnny look really bad, he accepted a relationship and then on first opportuity cheat on the woman.

    Een if the intention is make him learn a lesson on the hard way, slott could had found a better way



    It's really too late
    Iceman was in a good spot for that, Johnny isn't.
    Yes. I always thought the writer for that story with Daken had an agenda to make some kind of statement but IMO she used the wrong "tools" First of all, Daken's powers would make it suspect and second I agree with you that the track hadn't been laid to go down that path.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Yes. I always thought the writer for that story with Daken had an agenda to make some kind of statement but IMO she used the wrong "tools" First of all, Daken's powers would make it suspect and second I agree you that the track hadn't been laid to go down that path.
    She for sure had a agenda, she even tweeted confirming it. Daken powers are rapey for sure, not matter what x-men writers try to say pheromones absolutely influence human behaviour. one new x-men charcter was using pheromones to control people.
    Bobby ever had serious relationships, Johnny just entered one and messed up.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Writerblog View Post
    She for sure had a agenda, she even tweeted confirming it. Daken powers are rapey for sure, not matter what x-men writers try to say pheromones absolutely influence human behaviour. one new x-men charcter was using pheromones to control people.
    Bobby ever had serious relationships, Johnny just entered one and messed up.
    Yeah, I saw that tweet at the time it all came down. I don't care if there are gay people in comics. So create one! Don't make some radical "conversion".

  7. #52
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    I'm just going to say my opinion once because I've wasted a lot of energy on the topic already.
    Johnny being bi is fair game imo. Some people see there being a case for it, some don't. It's like everything, everyone has a different option on it.
    I believe that it would fit the character just fine and does not damage the character in any way. All of his previous relationships stay the same and it's opens the character up to potentially more relationships.

    He'd still like women, he would just like men too. It doesn't seem like big deal to me, but whatever.

    Also, we got an actually bad retcon with Slott changing their origin. Taking responsibility away from Reed for no reason was stupid. It didn't even lead to anything and it took away an important aspect of the character.
    Last edited by Crimz; 07-30-2021 at 03:07 PM.
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coatl View Post
    WTF with this history?

    First of all, Doom has stated that his interest in Victorious was a Fatherly one, something that has some sense for the damn AGE GAP betwen them, so the simple fact that he wanted to marry her instead of ADOPT her is creepy itself. He alredy has an adopted son (who here is not even metioned) he can easily have another one and put her in charge. Damn! he is DOOM he was able to put Riri, a complete foreing in charge, BECAUSE HE IS DOOM!!!, and his word is law. Well then he can put in charge a National symbol and a war hero. All the marriage was creepy and unnecesary.

    Second, Victorious jumping in bed with enemies of Doom is stupid. She who is madly loyal to Doom. Not even her own mother can change that. buuut some hormones can? She is not a horny teen unable to think straight after being called cute, for the MOST PROBLEMATIC guy avaliable. She is not a rebelius daughter trying to date what daddy hates to make him mad and create drama. She is a warrior, who can think straight and say "yes you are kind of cute, but there is no way I would have sex with you because that would be pretty problematic" She is pretty and admired she has no need to fall for a manchild who is basically married and become a cheater.

    Talking about cheaters, Jhonny Storm here is actually despicable. I don't like Sky, I found her unnecesary, unnoriginal and a religious fanatic. But Jhonny knew that and still acepted all the soulbound stuff, who is bassically a mariage but far more deeper. Took her away of her planet, family and friends and put her in his team to seal the deal. He accepted the marriage.
    But now that she is totally isolatated and depends on him to adapt into an alien planet, he just ignores her, allows his ex insult her, and at the first chance cheats on her. What an ass.

    Back in Victorius brain damage, she not just has sex with a problematic and married manchild, who she has seen like three times, but for some reason maddly dessires. She acepts Doom marriage propose while having him still in the bed. That's bad, ok but has solution, she could have told Jhonny to shut up and forget all about her, no one has to know. She wants to be honest? FINE, she can talk Doom in private, even if that means pausing the wedding a minute. What level of braing damage has to have a person to admit having sex with his enemy IN FRONT OF ALL THE PUBLIC AND CAMERAS!!! looks like she were trying to cause the most humillaton and damage posible, in a dude who is famous for his pride and vengefull nature. She knows him, she should know that hurting his pride in public was the worse idea ever.

    At the end Jhonny is trapped in supernova form (again), Victorius has to use a mask (maybe a gag could have been more usefull) because Doom "dosen't want to see her face" but other ways their relationship hasn't changed, and Doom hates the F4 again.

    So basically they caused braing damage in the cast for no reason, nothing changed at the end.

    Johnny didn't take Skye away from her home planet or make her join the team. She invited herself on board their ship after pretty much kidnapping Johnny and forcing him into this relationship. While I don't condone what Johnny did, I find it hard to drum up much anger towards him or much sympathy for Skye. I really want her to go back to Pryre for good. Didn't she already have a soulmate there that she dumped for Johnny?

    Johnny seems to be the kind of person who thinks he needs to settle for a toxic relationship rather than none at all. He even freaked out about the possibility of showing up for a family dinner without a date. I think the only reason he decided not to break up with Skye when she offered him his freedom is that he's an unattached guy and she was an attractive female who wanted him. There certainly didn't seem to be much of a soul bond between them. He hardly gave her a second thought when she wasn't around.

    I certainly have issues with the way Johnny is being written, but it has more to do with him just being stupid, rather than cheating on a woman who abducted him, stripped him, and forced him into that ridiculous soul band.

  9. #54
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    Yeah, this Skye character should just go away. She's a waste of ink and paper.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Yeah, I saw that tweet at the time it all came down. I don't care if there are gay people in comics. So create one! Don't make some radical "conversion".
    It's all very personal, like I doubt majority of comics fans think Johnny is gay. Sometimes writers just want to make their fanfic canon and/or get point from Twitter.
    Create new charaters seems to be the best way

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Yeah, this Skye character should just go away. She's a waste of ink and paper.
    I am beginning to think she was introduced just to make Johnny look like a douchebag and she will NOT go away but become a villain due to the whole 'woman scorned' thing.

  12. #57
    Fantastic Member Coatl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmore View Post
    Johnny didn't take Skye away from her home planet or make her join the team. She invited herself on board their ship after pretty much kidnapping Johnny and forcing him into this relationship. While I don't condone what Johnny did, I find it hard to drum up much anger towards him or much sympathy for Skye.
    As I stated I don't like Sky at all, and all the "let's take away the guilt from Reed" arc was terrible, but yes in this specific situation she is the victim.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmore View Post
    Didn't she already have a soulmate there that she dumped for Johnny?
    No she didn't the soulmate thing was an event who ocurred once in life and was determined from some kind of superior force, actually part of the arc was people blaming Sky for the FF arriving since that superior force has guided Jhonny to her and she was actually feeling guilty for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmore View Post
    Johnny seems to be the kind of person who thinks he needs to settle for a toxic relationship rather than none at all. He even freaked out about the possibility of showing up for a family dinner without a date. I think the only reason he decided not to break up with Skye when she offered him his freedom is that he's an unattached guy and she was an attractive female who wanted him.
    And that's actually on Jhonny not on Sky, she offered him his freedom even when she has been indoctrinated to belive that some superior force has tied them togheter and letting hm go means a loonely life whitout soulmate. Still Jhonny said "I accept" even when he was explained what the bonding means to Sky, he was offered a contract and he put his signature happily, he is not a victim here.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmore View Post
    There certainly didn't seem to be much of a soul bond between them. He hardly gave her a second thought when she wasn't around.
    I agree but again that's on Jhonny not Sky fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmore View Post
    I certainly have issues with the way Johnny is being written, but it has more to do with him just being stupid, rather than cheating on a woman who abducted him, stripped him, and forced him into that ridiculous soul band.
    The fact is, the soul band is not ridiculos to Sky and Jhonny is not forced to use it, he could have said NO any moment but he actually fight with Susan when she tryed to have the sould band removed and clarly told that was happy about get tangled with Sky. Didn't complain at being naked besides her or at the marriage. He was happy and willing all the way so no, he wasn't forced and yes he is a cheater.

    About why I pity Sky, is because She when with the F4 so Jhonny hasn't to be away of his team but now she is totally alone in a unknow planet whitout family or friends and the guy who promised love and protect her forgot about her the moment he is back at his planet, let her be insulted and cheat on her, even ignoring that she is totally aware of that cheating. She has no one to run with, to talk, or seek advice, because she only Know Jhonny family and they of course are going to take his side.
    It's like a woman who lefts her life, job and family to run away with his boyfriend to another country, were she dosen't know the lenguage, dosen't have friends or money. And then the guy gets bored of her and starts cheatting, she is a lot more vulnerable whitout the support net she could have in her own country while he holds the power.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmore View Post
    I really want her to go back to Pryre for good.
    I totally agree at this, I don't like Sky and think she is a bland character and hope after all this mess who is after all just bad writting she left the satage for good, but damn Jhonny acted as a jerk with her and I can't excuse him.
    "And you eater of world. May you taste our righteous fire, And choke on it. For my planet's sake, I spit my last breath at thee"

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Yes. I always thought the writer for that story with Daken had an agenda to make some kind of statement but IMO she used the wrong "tools" First of all, Daken's powers would make it suspect and second I agree you that the track hadn't been laid to go down that path.
    It was palpably a bad choice. Given Daken’s power it’s a legitimate question if a “sanitised” rape was being portrayed.

    However, people do come out late in life for all sorts of reasons…so I wouldn’t completely rule out a sexual relationship with a guy for Johnny IF it was really well written, and in particular part of a sensible long term writing plan.
    Last edited by JackDaw; 07-30-2021 at 10:11 PM.

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    It was palpably a bad choice. Given Daken’s power it’s a legitimate question if a “sanitised” rape was being portrayed.

    However, people do come out late in life for all sorts of reasons…so I wouldn’t completely rule out a sexual relationship with a guy for Johnny IF it was really well written, and in particular part of a sensible long term writing plan.
    That's the only way it should be done, if at all. One thing is for sure, Slott is not the writer for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Writerblog View Post
    It's all very personal, like I doubt majority of comics fans think Johnny is gay. Sometimes writers just want to make their fanfic canon and/or get point from Twitter.
    Create new charaters seems to be the best way
    To be exact, the thought is making him bisexual with some homosexual desires. As for new characters, we are dealing with characters who were created well over half a century ago. In that time, comics were a white male straight world. Demographics for gender, race, and sexuality were far more limited and nothing like what it really is. While changing gender and race for characters is much more difficult than changing sexuality, adding some flavor and nuances is possible. Johnny would never have dated an African American woman in the early Lee Kirby days. But if his next GF was black now, very few of us would care. Just because he didn't date a person of that group in olden days doesn't mean he didn't have those possible desires.
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