FF #34 / Bride of Doom, Final Chapter: The Sacred vow of Victor von Doom

[Writerblog]

To be exact, the thought is making him bisexual with some homosexual desires. As for new characters, we are dealing with characters who were created well over half a century ago. In that time, comics were a white male straight world. Demographics for gender, race, and sexuality were far more limited and nothing like what it really is. While changing gender and race for characters is much more difficult than changing sexuality, adding some flavor and nuances is possible. Johnny would never have dated an African American woman in the early Lee Kirby days. But if his next GF was black now, very few of us would care. Just because he didn't date a person of that group in olden days doesn't mean he didn't have those possible desires.

every bisexual has homosexuals thoughts or they would be straight.

I really understand The need for representation, i'm bisexual myself but I don't need to convert all straight guys that fandom think are gay to be bi/gay. I think Johnny is very well resolved sexually, he is very open about what he likes.
Fanfic have been ruining comics for years, So I'm careful about it.

[cmore]

Yeah, this Skye character should just go away. She's a waste of ink and paper.

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I just don't understand why anyone sympathizes with this character. I don't know if it matters that I'm a woman, but I can't help but wonder what the reaction would have been if Johnny had been a woman and Skye a man, or if the roles had been reversed and Johnny had done the same thing to a female character. He did ask her to take the soul band off, but she refused to do it. I know he eventually agreed to the relationship, but that because he's a horny idiot. Just because a victim developes Stockholm Syndrome doesn't make the victimizer a good person.

Dellig is the name of the guy I was trying to remember. He looked into the same eye and saw Skye as his soulmate. I guess this great eye can't make up it's mind.

Johnny need to swear off women for a while a go spend some time with Wyatt.

[Writerblog]

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I just don't understand why anyone sympathizes with this character. I don't know if it matters that I'm a woman, but I can't help but wonder what the reaction would have been if Johnny had been a woman and Skye a man, or if the roles had been reversed and Johnny had done the same thing to a female character. He did ask her to take the soul band off, but she refused to do it. I know he eventually agreed to the relationship, but that because he's a horny idiot. Just because a victim developes Stockholm Syndrome doesn't make the victimizer a good person.

Dellig is the name of the guy I was trying to remember. He looked into the same eye and saw Skye as his soulmate. I guess this great eye can't make up it's mind.

Johnny need to swear off women for a while a go spend some time with Wyatt.

Johnny could had said no. he knew the responsability of his new relationship, being dumb horny doesnt make him innocent

[Airtrap]

Johnny could had said no. he knew the responsability of his new relationship, being dumb horny doesnt make him innocent

Yeah she also gave him the chance to remove it and he choose to keep it, also he's not really horny with her. They never even kissed on panel, it's really chaste.

Honestly the most integrating thing for me is the fact that he still wears the soulband in the last panel before he turns to flame and i would guess it can't be removed now. Which means the constant pain he's in would be felt by her too. That's is an interesting Sci-fi concept but maybe no a basis for a long-term relationship. I mean how guilty would you feel if you constantly hurt somebody and it's your fault, especially after what he already did?

My biggest hope for the "biggest change since 1961" (that's how Marvel advertises it) is that Johnny figures it out himself how to control his new powers and turn back human, kinda like Iceman had to do. If Reed or any other super genius has to built a MacGuffin machine i would be annoyed.

There is definitely a setup for potential Johnny growth here, power wise and his emotional maturity, let's just hope Slott doesn't squander it. I think he did a good job with Ben, let's see his Johnny arc plays out.

[cmore]

Maybe Johnny didn't say no because he was unconscious at the time. Skye had no idea whether this was something he'd want, but she did it anyway. Maybe she should have waited until he woke up and then asked him if he wanted to be her soulmate. He apparently wasn't happy with this soul band or he wouldn't have demanded Skye take it off.

Besides, whether he said yes or no isn't the point. It doesn't negate the fact that this soulmate thing wasn't consensual. Would it be okay for a man to put an unconscious woman in his bed and strip her naked just because she might be okay with it when she wakes up? Would it be okay for a man to force a woman into a relationship because she might change her mind later?

I guess I'm just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.

[Coatl]

Maybe Johnny didn't say no because he was unconscious at the time.

He was unconscious when the band was put the first time, wasn't unconscius when he was explained about the band, how it worked and what it means, wasn't uncoscius when he was offered to take the band away and let him free, wasn't unconscius when he actually fought to his sister to keept the band, he acepted the band and all it's meaning for his own will.

Skye had no idea whether this was something he'd want, but she did it anyway.

Because she has been indoctrinated since born to accept that behaviour and someone refusing that sacred vow wasn't a concept that she would even imagine. You should stop thinking on Sky as human woman with human morals and see her as an alien trying to adapt to a new enviroment and culture.

He apparently wasn't happy with this soul band or he wouldn't have demanded Skye take it off.

I dont know if we read the same issue but he looks pretty content with the soulmate thing and ac fought to keept it.

Besides, whether he said yes or no isn't the point.

I think that is pretty much the point since consetiment is actually the point and as far as I see he gives his consetiment.

Would it be okay for a man to put an unconscious woman in his bed and strip her naked just because she might be okay with it when she wakes up? Would it be okay for a man to force a woman into a relationship because she might change her mind later?

Belive me that I have been very vocal about how sexual abuse on male is missrepresented in comics but this is not the case.
For starters the naked thing seems to be more for medical and practical reasons (they fought a battle and he was harmed and his clothes damaged), Sky didn't rape him while sleeping, second the woman waking naked or implying that she was undressed and changed in her sleep is so common that's practically a trope, is not portayed as correct but is not and act of cruelty, just shows how different morals in the other planet are compared to earth, same with the "forced relationship". Sky can't be blamed about it, not just because she was indoctrinatd to think that was the only way to beheave and there is no way a man O WOMAN who could reject the soul band. But let's remember that SHE DIDN'T PICK JHONNY but he was choseen to her for some superior force equivalent of their GOD, so she was thrown at that relationship as much as Jhonny, just she has been INDOCTRINTED to acept it. You should really take it in consideration before see her as a kind of rapist.
Besides we can see latter how Sky fought against all she has been taught ALL HER LIFE and considered SACRED just to give Jhonny his fredom back. She wanted a relationship but prefered a life of loneliess (their god wasn't going to pick another partner to her never, so she would be alone) before forcing Jhonny in a relationship he didn't want.
And at end JHONNY ACEPTED the relatinship knowing what that means and having all the support to say NO at any moment.

He is basically a guy who go to Las vegas and got married whitout thinking twice about it and now misses his freedom but instead of divorce he just cheats. Because he could have broken with Sky at any point by now and he didn't. He dosen't have any excuse to kept the soulband if he is not going to respect it or Sky.

I guess I'm just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.

Agree on that

[Oberon]

I'm just going to say my opinion once because I've wasted a lot of energy on the topic already.
Johnny being bi is fair game imo. Some people see there being a case for it, some don't. It's like everything, everyone has a different option on it.
I believe that it would fit the character just fine and does not damage the character in any way. All of his previous relationships stay the same and it's opens the character up to potentially more relationships.

He'd still like women, he would just like men too. It doesn't seem like big deal to me, but whatever.

Also, we got an actually bad retcon with Slott changing their origin. Taking responsibility away from Reed for no reason was stupid. It didn't even lead to anything and it took away an important aspect of the character.

Thank you! From real life perspective, almost everyone can be on some scale of this.

Most may not see or realize. We trivialize how much society and traditions 'order' us.
I've known men who in the '70s, with their wives, were in the "Swingers" thing. Wife swapping was what they called it, and of course, it puts all the agency on men

But years later, they decided they were also attracted to men and had bi relationships.

I've also known men or women who mostly lived 'down-low', especially in the AA community.
I was a Psychology minor in college and as a Scorpio, sexuality as always fascinated me, so

I know stuff or have read about stuff.

[Oberon]

I think Johnny would be more of a situational bisexual. Not really thinking about men as sexual attractive

but a situation brings it out. The classic 'rapey' thing in prison is a gross but somewhat applyable example. Men without women 'trope'.
I could see that if Johnny and .... let's say Iceman, ended up stranded, in another time or dimension etc and eventually reaching out to each other, but maybe it would be less romantic and more "we're all we got"

and that is so contrived, but that is really the best way to do this.

so why bother? (yeah, I've changed my mind about this, I would prefer more realizm and less fan-worship or whatefver)

[NDComicsFan]

Actually it was Doom that cured Johnny and also did a twofer by delivering Sue's second child at the same time. Somehow by draining Johnny's excess energy that kept in the flame mode, he was able to safely deliver Valeria and drain off the Negative Zone energy (she was conceived in the Negative Zone) that was part of her.

If you go back even farther, Johnny's flame was permanently on during Inferno. (FF 323-326) and Reed built a machine to try to get him back to normal. During an attack by the Frightful Four Ben got thrown into the machine while it was on and not only did it put Johnny back to normal it completely cured Ben. He did not return to his Thing form until 350. (although he did use the Thing suit a few times).

[Oberon]

The best possible outcomes of current stuff (I haven't seen that latest issue yet btw)

Johnny figures out how to control the flame thing - like Iceman (hmmmmm)

Skye figures out she herself was duped. But as in the fashion of other folks associated with the FF, sticks around and is possibly repurposed.
I personally hate 'throw away characters' that only exist for a story and are never heard of again.
I would want to suggest redeeming Skye by having her associate with the Inhumans who would be a better and cultural match for her. Maybe some nice little winged person could be in her future.
Or the same thing but not Inhumans; various mutants or beings with wings.

Zora and Doom. I haven't seen it in full, but I'm sure I won't like it. Petty Doom, at this point in the game, really deserves some smackdown.
Isn't it somewhat canon the various persons he has betrayed, like his mother even?

[cmore]

I have no problem with Johnny hooking up with a guy. If he's going to be in any kind of relationship, I just want it to work, and so far he's had a much better rapport with his male friends than with any of the females he's hooked up with. I'd loved to see him and Wyatt together, but I don't know where he is on the scale.

While I've shelved the Skye debate, I still have to say that I don't think Johnny deserves the level of hate he's getting right now. I certainly don't condone cheating, but why is what Johnny did any worse than what Crystal did? She cheated on her husband for months, felt no remorse about it, and if the man hadn't finally dumped her, she'd have kept cheating. Yet people still seem to love her, and some even want her and Johnny to get back together. Johnny, OTOH, cheats once for the first time in his life, feels bad about it, and suddenly he's the worst scumbag in the Marvel universe and deserves to suffer the wrath of Doom for the rest of his life.

I'm fairly new here, so I don't know what the fan reaction was to Crystal's affair, and I don't member the story very well, but was there something about it that made it okay, or made it more forgivable?

Yes, cheating is bad, and Johnny's an idiot who made a stupid mistake, but he's also a guy who, on several occasions, was willing to sacrifice himself to save his family and friends. I just don't think he's the horrible person everyone is making him out to be.

Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I'll probably just agree to disagree on this issue too.

[Iron Maiden]

The best possible outcomes of current stuff (I haven't seen that latest issue yet btw)

Johnny figures out how to control the flame thing - like Iceman (hmmmmm)

Skye figures out she herself was duped. But as in the fashion of other folks associated with the FF, sticks around and is possibly repurposed.
I personally hate 'throw away characters' that only exist for a story and are never heard of again.
I would want to suggest redeeming Skye by having her associate with the Inhumans who would be a better and cultural match for her. Maybe some nice little winged person could be in her future.
Or the same thing but not Inhumans; various mutants or beings with wings.

Zora and Doom. I haven't seen it in full, but I'm sure I won't like it. Petty Doom, at this point in the game, really deserves some smackdown.
Isn't it somewhat canon the various persons he has betrayed, like his mother even?

Where did you get the idea that he betrayed his mother??? have you read the GN Doctor Strange/Doctor Doom: Triumph and Torment?

[Iron Maiden]

I have no problem with Johnny hooking up with a guy. If he's going to be in any kind of relationship, I just want it to work, and so far he's had a much better rapport with his male friends than with any of the females he's hooked up with. I'd loved to see him and Wyatt together, but I don't know where he is on the scale.

While I've shelved the Skye debate, I still have to say that I don't think Johnny deserves the level of hate he's getting right now. I certainly don't condone cheating, but why is what Johnny did any worse than what Crystal did? She cheated on her husband for months, felt no remorse about it, and if the man hadn't finally dumped her, she'd have kept cheating. Yet people still seem to love her, and some even want her and Johnny to get back together. Johnny, OTOH, cheats once for the first time in his life, feels bad about it, and suddenly he's the worst scumbag in the Marvel universe and deserves to suffer the wrath of Doom for the rest of his life.

I'm fairly new here, so I don't know what the fan reaction was to Crystal's affair, and I don't member the story very well, but was there something about it that made it okay, or made it more forgivable?

Yes, cheating is bad, and Johnny's an idiot who made a stupid mistake, but he's also a guy who, on several occasions, was willing to sacrifice himself to save his family and friends. I just don't think he's the horrible person everyone is making him out to be.

Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I'll probably just agree to disagree on this issue too.

The message boards weren't around when Crystal cheated on Pietro with a real estate salesman or something. I only read it years later from buying from the back issue bins. It sure didn't make her look good but IIRC it may have been written by Steve Englehart who was one of the worst writers on the Fantastic Four IMO.

[Oberon]

Where did you get the idea that he betrayed his mother??? have you read the GN Doctor Strange/Doctor Doom: Triumph and Torment?

Oops. Confusing it with the story about Valeria, where he made a deal over her. Does that sound more real?

This would be from the Unthinkable storyline which I remember but was summed up on CBR recently.
So that qualifies to me?

I am thinking that there is something about his mother. Did he have a chance to free her but opted out.

At any rate, my point is he is petty and also an end to the means. Pettiness is more born out by various other battles and fights with the FF and anothers.

[Iron Maiden]

Oops. Confusing it with the story about Valeria, where he made a deal over her. Does that sound more real? This would be from the Unthinkable storyline which I remember but was summed up on CBR recently.
So that qualifies to me?

Yes, that would be Mark Waid's Unthinkable storyline, not a favorite of mine. It has some good elements but mostly I think it was just Waid trashing Doom with the job being completed in the follow up arc, Authoritative Action. Eventually it doesn't matter because most of what Waid did was undone except the part with Valeria, although I was surprised the Christopher Cantwell at least showed Victor and Valeria meeting up in Hell in his Doom series. If Cantwell planned to do more than that we will never know because the ongoing series was sort of a victim of the pandemic. Or TPTB at Marvel just changed their mind and wanted just a maxi series out of it.

I am thinking that there is something about his mother. Did he have a chance to free her but opted out.

I'm just going to say you should read the GN and find out for yourself, unless someone spoils it for you. Preferably You should read it without spoilers.

So here is a teaser page.... I actually bought this page and about a dozen others on eBay some years back. This is an image from the book itself though.

At any rate, my point is he is petty and also an end to the means. Pettiness is more born out by various other battles and fights with the FF and another.

Yes, he can be a petty person. IMO that is from being such a solitary person who has few he would consider to be a friends. Probably Stephen Strange is the closest since they have teamed up later on in Savage Avengers. Stephen was one of the few that took Doom at his word that he was trying to change in Infamous Iron Man.