Arrow

[Frontier]

So if the DA and police captain are in Diaz's pocket, does that mean Watson is too?

Isn't she claiming to be Laurel Lance because she is Laurel Lance? That's her real name. And she doesn't need to be after anything. If she's in a genuine fugue state, she might not remember the last two years. She's not trying to get away with anything, necessarily.

I've seen it theorized that Black Siren might claim to be Earth-1 Laurel, still alive, to try and get protection from Team Arrow and New Team Arrow.

I was also confused with how she managed to go to Corto Maltese and take this money out--what was the window of opportunity for that to happen? Laurel was in Star City and then she got shot and taken to the cabin in the woods by Quentin. That was one those things that threw me off. I thought they were setting up a doppelganger situation.

It's possible Diaz framed her (he's done it before).

It seems like he planned for this tension between Team Arrow as much as Cayden did.

[AnakinFlair]

I'm looking forward to a crushing B team victory once Oliver and friends lose their plot armor for a couple episodes. I don't care for for this arc very much, but I care even less for Oliver and friends being such worthless hypocrites. They started the episode's conflict by invading another team's base, threatening them, tear gassing them, then threatening them some more. Fun.

Oliver kills people when he hates them. Full stop. He just recently killed an evil doppleganger of himself. His warning Dinah that she was "crossing a line" is hogwash. Muddled, self-serving, situational ethics at their finest. His anger at Renee for betraying his trust while simultaneously violating Curtis, Renee, and Dinah's privacy is byronic in its complete lack of self-examination. He'll praise Felicity for nuking a small town, sacrificing thousands of lives to protect millions of Star city residents, because "she made a tough call", yet harangue Renee for choosing being with his daughter over protecting Oliver's secrets. It is NONSENSE. But you can't just blame the writing, because it's in keeping with Oliver's character. At this point, he's nothing but a wearisome antihero with plot armor who chooses to surround himself with enablers.

The real crux of the episode was Dinah realizing she didn't need to kill Siren. That was an actual heroic moment, that proved she was a cut above the likes of Oliver. She spared the woman who murdered the person she loved. Comparatively, Oliver killed Damian Darhk as soon as he was able to. Pffffft.

Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. Oliver killed his double who was a Nazi whose whole plan was to enslave the earth. Dinah is going after Black Siren for killing her psycotic mass-murdering boyfriend. Oliver has made it a point over the last five seasons not to kill (though the writers play fast and loose with that when it comes to grunts). He has only killed two of the major villains, both who were too dangerous to be left alive while sparing Slade Wilson and Malcolm freaking Merlyn.

Oliver violated their privacy when he learned that a team member was selling him out to the feds, and he knew it couldn't be John or HIS WIFE.

Comparing Felicity being forced to choose between the less of two evils with the nuke with Renee selling out Oliver is laughable.

That final BS you said about Dinah having a 'heroic moment'- WTF? It wasn't a heroic moment. Dinah stood down for Curtis, but as soon as he turned his back she would have killed Black Siren.

Really wish this episode was Rene's send off, but I doubt it is. Can't stand that fucker. Dinah I'm fine with, Curtis is getting some backbone, cool. Rene can't take a long walk off a short peer fast enough for my tastes.

Curtis lost me when he hacked the implant. Dinah I can at least understand where she's coming from, even if i don't like it.

I just couldn't track what was happening there. Since she was bleeding from the gut just like Earth-1 Laurel, I thought maybe she was supposed to be the real Laurel. I'm confused.

They flushed all the Terrrific Trio down the toilet. Dinah went first, then they tried to flush Rene but the toilet backed up, so they re-flushed and sent Curtis down after him.

A lot depended on feeling Dinah's pain over Vince. And if they had established that Vince really mattered, maybe it would have worked. But he was not worth anyone's tears. So Dinah just comes off as stupid, willing to throw everything away for no good purpose.

Curtis had a chance of redeeming himself, but his actions in this episode make him just as bad as the other two.

It's funny that Felicity was in the middle of the fight, while Thea got out of there. By any logic, Thea should have been fighting, but I guess they don't have a stunt person to do her scenes.

I thought it was fairly obvious. Black Siren knows she's in no condition to flee the country, and knows that NTA is hunting her and will kill her, and OTA is hunting her and will probably lock her up. And the world at large doesn't know about the multiple earths. So she decides to pose as Earth-1 Laurel Lance, former DA and beloved hero of Star City.

I think both sides acted like jerks.

Oliver wished the B-Team luck and has mostly stayed out of their way, and has gone out of HIS way to work with them to stop Cayden James, putting up with an increasingly hostile attitude towards himself that frankly was not warranted. Yeah they invaded the newbies lair,but it was to capture a woman that Dinah has a vendetta against and may have had stashed their. NTA meanwhile have continuously put their own petty grievances and personal feeling ahead of the city they claim to protect time after time, and Curtis could have crippled Dig with that stunt he pulled. I'm with OTA.

[Frontier]

Oliver wished the B-Team luck and has mostly stayed out of their way, and has gone out of HIS way to work with them to stop Cayden James, putting up with an increasingly hostile attitude towards himself that frankly was not warranted. Yeah they invaded the newbies lair,but it was to capture a woman that Dinah has a vendetta against and may have had stashed their. NTA meanwhile have continuously put their own petty grievances and personal feeling ahead of the city they claim to protect time after time, and Curtis could have crippled Dig with that stunt he pulled. I'm with OTA.

And it's not like Oliver's worry about Dinah's reaction to Black Siren was off.

The second she sees Black Siren sprawled helpless on the ground she moves in to do to her what Siren did to Vince. She had to get talked down by Curtis who essentially used the same justification Oliver used earlier to try to talk her out of killing Black Siren.

And this was all after she had batted around an unarmed and non-hostile Quentin with her staff which, frankly, I find more problematic then Oliver putting Rene in the hospital after he came at him with an axe (after Oliver had explicitly told him to stand down).

Really, Team Arrow breaking into NTA's lair guns blazing was kind of a jerk move but it's not like the recruits didn't manage to consistently top that on their own.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Curtis used to be the most sympathetic of NTA (as far as I'm concerned anyway), but it's moved on to Dinah with this episode. I can understand her wanting to kill Laurel after what she did to Vince and not trusting her about the money. She wasn't thinking clearly, but Rene and Curtis just seemed to be operating counter to what Oliver was doing just because they are mad at him. Curtis seriously injured Diggle, and did Rene actually shoot Felicity? For the good of the city, they all should've done what they could to secure the money first then figure out what to do with Laurel later.

There's lots of blame to go around. Oliver didn't need to invade NTA's base like that, and even worse, Lance shouldn't have kept Laurel a secret knowing there was a ticking clock. If Thea hadn't found him, his only strategy was to "work on it" himself. Not smart.

I did like Laurel using the alias "Siu Jerk Jai", though.

The only other time I can remember them doing it was when Green Arrow called Captain Singh, and The Flash sped in and left a note for Singh saying he could trust GA.

I was also counting the time at the end of season 3 when Flash ran to Nanda Parbat to save everyone. I would've counted Flash's stopping Damian Dahrk's guys from shooting Team Arrow in season 4 as well, but they didn't intentionally call him in for that one.

So, given the outcome of this episode, what do you think the final fates of the B Team will be, especially if Roy rejoins Team Arrow once again?

I was hoping Curtis would abandon Mr. Terrific, work with Felicity full time, and get a boyfriend. But now it seems like the damage between him and Felicity is irreparable, so I don't know. Dinah could stay on as a detective/vigilante, but Rene just needs to retire (as angry as I am at him, I don't want him killed off).

Why do Rene and Curtis care so much about Vince? Because he was Dinah's boyfriend and helped them out a bit? I mean, Vigilante could almost be as bad as Black Siren at times, even if he just exclusively targeted criminals (or who he perceived to be criminals). It's not like they really knew him.

I really can't comprehend how New Team Arrow could keep Oliver not coming to save Vince against him. So was he just supposed to let the bomb that would destroy the city go and walk into a trap like NTA did? The sheer ridiculousness of the recruits astounds me sometimes .

They clearly have selective memories. Anything of late that went wrong for any reason, they can somehow twist logic to blame on one of Oliver's decisions. Even though it's fairly clear if Rene didn't out Oliver (and Dinah didn't keep Vince a secret) and Team Arrow stayed together, they probably would've stopped Cayden James, saved Vince, gotten Star City's money back, and broken up the cabal by now.

So if the DA and police captain are in Diaz's pocket, does that mean Watson is too?

I was wondering about that. Where IS Watson? This should be her case. I don't want there to be some kind of cop out where she's really a bad guy (or she gets killed by someone working for Diaz) either.

[Immortal Weapon]

Curtis used to be the most sympathetic of NTA (as far as I'm concerned anyway), but it's moved on to Dinah with this episode. I can understand her wanting to kill Laurel after what she did to Vince and not trusting her about the money. She wasn't thinking clearly, but Rene and Curtis just seemed to be operating counter to what Oliver was doing just because they are mad at him. Curtis seriously injured Diggle, and did Rene actually shoot Felicity? For the good of the city, they all should've done what they could to secure the money first then figure out what to do with Laurel later.

Renee didn't intentionally shoot Felicity. She jumped in front of his shot.

[Frontier]

Curtis used to be the most sympathetic of NTA (as far as I'm concerned anyway), but it's moved on to Dinah with this episode. I can understand her wanting to kill Laurel after what she did to Vince and not trusting her about the money. She wasn't thinking clearly, but Rene and Curtis just seemed to be operating counter to what Oliver was doing just because they are mad at him. Curtis seriously injured Diggle, and did Rene actually shoot Felicity? For the good of the city, they all should've done what they could to secure the money first then figure out what to do with Laurel later.

I lost all sympathy for Dinah when she beat Quentin up.

Like, this is the guy who was the father of your predescessor and who gave you his approval to become Black Canary, and you just coldly knock him around ?

It's even worse then what Ollie did to Rene since Quentin is, for all intents and purposes, a civilian and wasn't trying to fight her.

There's lots of blame to go around. Oliver didn't need to invade NTA's base like that, and even worse, Lance shouldn't have kept Laurel a secret knowing there was a ticking clock. If Thea hadn't found him, his only strategy was to "work on it" himself. Not smart.

He didn't even really have a plan. He admitted that he had completely forgotten about the money while he was trying to get through to Laurel.

I did like Laurel using the alias "Siu Jerk Jai", though.

It's kind of funny that they give a Black Canary alias to Black Siren instead of Dinah .

I was also counting the time at the end of season 3 when Flash ran to Nanda Parbat to save everyone. I would've counted Flash's stopping Damian Dahrk's guys from shooting Team Arrow in season 4 as well, but they didn't intentionally call him in for that one.

And when he saved them from Vigilante last season.

I was hoping Curtis would abandon Mr. Terrific, work with Felicity full time, and get a boyfriend. But now it seems like the damage between him and Felicity is irreparable, so I don't know. Dinah could stay on as a detective/vigilante, but Rene just needs to retire (as angry as I am at him, I don't want him killed off).

Rene dying would be terrible for Zoey.

I'm actually kind of curious to see how she'll take her dad's condition.

They clearly have selective memories. Anything of late that went wrong for any reason, they can somehow twist logic to blame on one of Oliver's decisions. Even though it's fairly clear if Rene didn't out Oliver (and Dinah didn't keep Vince a secret) and Team Arrow stayed together, they probably would've stopped Cayden James, saved Vince, gotten Star City's money back, and broken up the cabal by now.

And NTA were the ones who refused Oliver's olive branch to reunite the teams to deal with the threats going on instead of just continuing to be petty about how they perceived Oliver's treatment of them. Even after he apologized.

I was wondering about that. Where IS Watson? This should be her case. I don't want there to be some kind of cop out where she's really a bad guy (or she gets killed by someone working for Diaz) either.

It would be kind of funny if Watson is the only one coming after Oliver willingly without Diaz having to pay her for it .

[PyroTwilight]

Watson is basically the only one who seems to be going after Ollie for genuinely being a vigilante and no ulterior motives, I hope it stays that way. Though at this point I hope she does a 180 because it's such a dumb position to take in Star City.


And yeah New Team Arrow is just exhausting at this point.

Dinah: This is for Vince.
Ollie: You realize if you all listened on that mission he might've survived, right?
Dinah: You don't get to say his name!
Ollie: *blink* (Looks at camera) She does realize she just brought him up, right?

Every time the Teams butt heads I can't help but think it'd be way more even if Ragman were around to act as the go between for the two. Man, I miss Ragman.

Yeah I couldn't even figure out if Laurel was supposed to have withdrawn the money or not or if Diaz faked it. She never does or says anything that says she didn't withdraw the money. But logic would dictate she couldn't have gone to Corto Maltese so quickly unless she did this behind everyone's backs earlier (which is possible but unlikely).


Man, I can only imagine the hate their characters are getting. I feel bad for their actors at this point. New Team Arrow can't be written like this and have us think the writers want us to like them.

And I do wonder what this means business wise for Curtis and Felicity.


And while I kinda get it, it's beyond dumb for Black Siren to try taking our Dinah's place if that's her goal. (Lord knows Black Siren's screen time continues to annoy me too).


Part of me hopes it's the real Laurel just to further hilariously complicate everything.

[Jim Kelly]

I don't think the writers on LEGENDS and ARROW ever talk to each other, let alone coordinate their storylines (still waiting for the big Sara and Black Siren encounter--and Sara has been in Star City several times now and never even talks to her dad). But if they did confab, the whole Damien Darhk plot on LEGENDS + time travel paradox + anachronisms would very easily allow for original Laurel to pop back into existence. And it really wouldn't be any more far fetched than a doppelganger from another universe or all the other strange things they've allowed to happen on ARROW.

[donpricetag]

Renee and company are unlikeable and have very little ground to stand on. This is started because Renee sold out Oliver (and the whole team because if he went down, who wouldn't be able to connect the dots?) to get custody of his daughter who wasn't in any kind of danger. He said he "did it for his daughter" but he was about to take Oliver away from his extremely emotionally fragile son. In this one episode, Renee went down hard yes... After he went at Oliver with an axe. Dinah was about to legit murder Siren, city money be darned, and Terrific almost caused permanent damage to Dig just to track them so Dinah and Renee could perform aforementioned attempted murders. Oliver and company did bust into their bunker and before that put them on surveillance. Ok. He had good reason to.

The whole Vince thing... Renee and company put his life over a nuclear bomb. A freaking bomb. It's all very stupid.

[Immortal Weapon]

Renee and company are unlikeable and have very little ground to stand on. This is started because Renee sold out Oliver (and the whole team because if he went down, who wouldn't be able to connect the dots?) to get custody of his daughter who wasn't in any kind of danger. He said he "did it for his daughter" but he was about to take Oliver away from his extremely emotionally fragile son. In this one episode, Renee went down hard yes... After he went at Oliver with an axe. Dinah was about to legit murder Siren, city money be darned, and Terrific almost caused permanent damage to Dig just to track them so Dinah and Renee could perform aforementioned attempted murders. Oliver and company did bust into their bunker and before that put them on surveillance. Ok. He had good reason to.

The whole Vince thing... Renee and company put his life over a nuclear bomb. A freaking bomb. It's all very stupid.

Ollie would have done the same right thing Renee did if it was William. Possibility Diggle too.

[Frontier]

Ollie would have done the same right thing Renee did if it was William. Possibility Diggle too.

Oliver even admitted he probably would, when Thea brought it up, it's why he let Rene come back for the op to save Quentin.

But then he went awol and confirmed to Oliver that he couldn't trust Rene in the field anymore.

[Toreador]

I'm wondering how far Black Siren is going to take her kidnapping story considering how public the 'real' Laurel's death got once she got outed as Black Canary and was murdered during the prison riot. The city honored her with a statue and Quentin was fired from the police because there was questions over how involved he was in Laurel/Black Canary's activities.

[Frontier]

I'm wondering how far Black Siren is going to take her kidnapping story considering how public the 'real' Laurel's death got once she got outed as Black Canary and was murdered during the prison riot. The city honored her with a statue and Quentin was fired from the police because there was questions over how involved he was in Laurel/Black Canary's activities.

Shouldn't Agent Watson be coming in to arrest her for being a vigilante and working with the Green Arrow ?

[Handsome men don't lose fights]

Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. Oliver killed his double who was a Nazi whose whole plan was to enslave the earth. Dinah is going after Black Siren for killing her psycotic mass-murdering boyfriend. Oliver has made it a point over the last five seasons not to kill (though the writers play fast and loose with that when it comes to grunts). He has only killed two of the major villains, both who were too dangerous to be left alive while sparing Slade Wilson and Malcolm freaking Merlyn.

Oh, he only killed TWO of the major villains. I'm sure the dozens of security guards, bodyguards, and other assorted hirelings don't matter, then. And of those two, how exactly was his call to determine who should be spared? You understand the inherent fallacy of the "Judge/Jury/Executioner" mentality, yes? Also: It's worth pointing out that Merlin had to blackmail Oliver into sparing his life three times after Oliver made sincere efforts to kill him, and Oliver's decision to spare Wilson was based on a rare moment of self-reflection: He realized that killing Wilson for actions that he himself was undertaking would have made him a hypocrite, so he opted out. (I miss that version of Oliver.) Which of course brings us to Dinah wanting to kill Siren to avenge her love interest, which Oliver hypocritically opposed despite he himself attacking and killing the person who wounded his current love interest and murdered his ex. Kind of seems like it's cool if Oliver does it, but it's bad if someone else does it. BTW, as I recall that Nazi twin's plans had already been dashed, his army was destroyed, and he was down one kryptonian. All Oliver had to do was take him in to stand trial, or better yet turn him over to the people of his world to face judgement for his crimes against humanity. Buuut, y'know, it's Oliver. He lives in the moment.

Oliver violated their privacy when he learned that a team member was selling him out to the feds, and he knew it couldn't be John or HIS WIFE.

So you agree that Oliver violated their privacy, but your argument is that it's okay because it was Oliver Doing it. Heh, okay.

Comparing Felicity being forced to choose between the less of two evils with the nuke with Renee selling out Oliver is laughable.

Explain your reasoning before offering your arbitrary opinion as a fact. What makes it laughable? Felicity made a decision while under extreme pressure. Renee did the same. Felicity's actions resulted in people dying but was forgiven for it due to the impossibly difficult circumstances. Renee's actions would have resulted in no one dying, but Oliver would been arrested and prosecuted. Of course this bears reminding: Oliver is a criminal and a liar. Oliver has killed people on numerous occasions. Oliver has no legal defense against this. He is a murderer, and he's never been legally punished for his crimes. It's fine to bristle and affect outrage over someone daring to hold your favorite character accountable for his deeds, but it's childish "he was mean to me first! Rrrr!" playground logic to say that Renee was actually doing a bad thing. Oliver might be a nice murderer, but he's still a murderer.

That final BS you said about Dinah having a 'heroic moment'- WTF? It wasn't a heroic moment. Dinah stood down for Curtis, but as soon as he turned his back she would have killed Black Siren.

Uh, she had Siren on the ground and was preparing to break her neck, and then realized after encouragement from Curtis that killing the witch wouldn't solve anything. Your claim that Dinah would have still killed Laurel 2 is hot air. More to the point, if Oliver and Diggle hadn't gotten in the way, she and Curtis could have caught Siren and Star City would have gotten its money back.

I thought it was fairly obvious. Black Siren knows she's in no condition to flee the country, and knows that NTA is hunting her and will kill her, and OTA is hunting her and will probably lock her up. And the world at large doesn't know about the multiple earths. So she decides to pose as Earth-1 Laurel Lance, former DA and beloved hero of Star City.

Which would be bad writing. If she publicly states thats she's Laurel Lance, then logically speaking, she should be arrested and prosecuted for vigilantism. If the writers ignore that, then this show really will have swiveled down the drain. Of course, this is the episode that stated that all Siren needed in order not to become a mass-murderering thug for hire, was a "daddy" in her life. Whether intended or not, her interactions with Quentin have become the creepiest thing on network television.

Oliver wished the B-Team luck and has mostly stayed out of their way, and has gone out of HIS way to work with them to stop Cayden James--

Heh, that's actually not what happened at all. When Renee-gate happened, Oliver booted Renee off the team, and Dinah and Curtis chose to go with him after becoming increasingly frustrated with Oliver

I.) withholding information from them,

II.) Intruding on their privacy,

III.) disregarding their input in favor of Diggle and Felicity, and

IV.) They got tired of his heavy-handed authoritarianism.

He said "my way," they chose "the highway." It was a complete failure of trust and leadership. Not to put too fine a point on it, but CW Ollie sucks at managing other people. Which fits with his profile as an unhinged loner, but still. He's not good at holding groups together, which extends into his terrible political career. All of his businesses have failed, his teams are constantly disbanding, and his friends are always becoming his enemies, with the exception of Diggle and Felicity who are enablers, and Barry and Kara who respectively live in a different city and an alternate universe and consequently don't have to put up with his nonsense. Also worth noting: Oliver didn't "go out of his way" to work with NTA. He was desperately short on manpower and realized that pushing them away was a mistake, and he begged them for their help. They didn't really turn on him until he let Vince die.

[Howard Allan]

You all realize that Renee started this all last season when hen didn't show up at the court hearing tom determine if he could get his daughter back. If he had shown up the court would have given her back to him. He decided that it would be better for her if he was out of her life, so he never showed. After that the whole thing started going down hill in this season with him changing his mind and wanting her back.