Arrow

[Punisher007]

That's the thing though. GA is a cool character, but his rogues gallery is rather, underwhelming. Aside from Merlyn, Count Vertigo, and more recently Komodo, the rest are rather meh.

[maczero]

Really loving this season so far, but wish they would incorporate more Green Arrow villains in the show.

The show has featured a third of the characters on that list. Seems like they're making a reasonable effort to use known Green Arrow villains.

[GrandKaiser]

Here are some things I want to see in this show:

The Question
Doctor Mid Nite
Thea being a villain
More Suicide Squad (along with more Suicide Squad characters)
More depth for Roy, like from the comics (i.e him going crazy, drug addict, etc.)
Ra's pronounced correctly
Ra's with sideburns
Catman
Rag Doll
Superpowers
Slade back
Vandal Savage
Lazarus pits
Nyssa joining Team Arrow (thought it would happen in the Magician)

and the highest on my list is...CHECKMATE. I get it that Argus is basically Checkmate but it doesn't feel the same.

[Kalen O.]

I don't think Thea is going to end up going nearly as far to the dark side as everyone is expecting. Thing is, Merlyn already blew his trump card by not telling Thea that Oliver is the Arrow. Her whole thing is being disillusioned and feeling like she can't trust anyone. When she finds out that Ollie is the Arrow, yes, she'll be pissed and hurt, but that won't necessarily bring her closer to Merlyn, because now she'll know that he knew too and kept it from her - and while Ollie's secrets can be excused by wanting to protect her, that same reasoning won't work for Merlyn with this secret, as the only reason he has to keep it from Thea would be to manipulate her.

Unless of course, we find out that Merlyn already told Thea who the Arrow is, but I really don't see anything that would support that she knows at this point.

And no offense Grand Kaiser, but I vehemently hope we DON'T see Roy go crazy or become a drug addict to give him 'depth' like the comics, because that's what ruined him in the comics IMO - the idea that those kinds of storylines are necessary to give a character depth. There's plenty of ways to flesh out his character on the show without turning him into a punching bag for all the worst tropes from the comics. Bring in Cheshire, that's more than enough fodder for compelling storylines with Roy.

[Jim Kelly]

As long as it's the original Question I could see that working. Doctor Mid-Nite would be interesting. I think of Thea as already a villain--so mission accomplished. I don't want to see Roy going downhill--it's been hard enough for me to get to where I like him on the show. I need to see him established as a hero that deserves to be on the team. Catman or a version thereof probably should be on GOTHAM. Rag Doll and Vandal Savage would both be great on THE FLASH--I think that show needs those kind of villains more. I think we already have a form of the Suicide Squad, when they do Ollie's flashbacks--but Waller is so evil, I need to see why the Suicide Squad is any good at all--so I would be happy if they introduced Rick Flag as the moral stalwart of the Squad. I never read CHECKMATE--did it have anything to do with the Manhunters--given they introduced Mark Shaw, I want them to do more with the Manhunters. I'd like to see the whole team take an extended vacation in Nanda Parbat--and maybe introduce Boston Brand whlle they're at it.

[GrandKaiser]

And no offense Grand Kaiser, but I vehemently hope we DON'T see Roy go crazy or become a drug addict to give him 'depth' like the comics, because that's what ruined him in the comics IMO - the idea that those kinds of storylines are necessary to give a character depth. There's plenty of ways to flesh out his character on the show without turning him into a punching bag for all the worst tropes from the comics. Bring in Cheshire, that's more than enough fodder for compelling storylines with Roy.

No offense taken, you're totally right. I think Roy should become an agent of Argus, maybe meet Cheshire and fall in love with her, idk. I just think he needs more depth. We already saw it in this episode, in the beginning with "I didn't get much sleep" and the end with the big reveal.

As long as it's the original Question I could see that working. Doctor Mid-Nite would be interesting. I think of Thea as already a villain--so mission accomplished. I don't want to see Roy going downhill--it's been hard enough for me to get to where I like him on the show. I need to see him established as a hero that deserves to be on the team. Catman or a version thereof probably should be on GOTHAM. Rag Doll and Vandal Savage would both be great on THE FLASH--I think that show needs those kind of villains more. I think we already have a form of the Suicide Squad, when they do Ollie's flashbacks--but Waller is so evil, I need to see why the Suicide Squad is any good at all--so I would be happy if they introduced Rick Flag as the moral stalwart of the Squad. I never read CHECKMATE--did it have anything to do with the Manhunters--given they introduced Mark Shaw, I want them to do more with the Manhunters. I'd like to see the whole team take an extended vacation in Nanda Parbat--and maybe introduce Boston Brand whlle they're at it.

All awesome ideas, and yes I meant the original Question.

Checkmate is basically what Argus is in Arrow, except it was set up as more top secret and, well, classy. The series was awesome, and had some incredible characters involved like Mr Terrific, Helena Bertinelli, Maxwell Lord, even Alan Scott was a part of it. Had nothing to do with the Manhunters, they're more sci-fi, though Checkmate dealt with a lot of different things, some of them on a cosmic scale.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Well I was as surprised as everyone else by Roy's dream, but I think everything that can be gleaned from it has already been pointed out. Everyone's made very good points that leave me completely in the dark over whether I believe he's really the killer or not. If he is he was clearly horrified by it, and the question becomes will he come clean to Oliver and throw himself on his mercy, or keep quiet? And would Oliver be understanding of the fact that someone/something had control of Roy's mind again, or would he completely lose control?

I did not expect Felicity to have once been a goth chick and my first impression of her mom was that she must have been awfully young when she had her. But there ended up being some surprisingly touching moments between them.

And I took one thing from this ep that no one's mentioned regarding Laurel- "Black. Definitely black." Anyone think that means that she's destined to not just become the new Canary, but BLACK Canary?

From the preview it seems that Roy does tell someone about his dream, I think that it was Felicity, to where he admits to her that he killed or thinks that he killed Sara.

[Kalen O.]

As long as it's the original Question I could see that working. Doctor Mid-Nite would be interesting. I think of Thea as already a villain--so mission accomplished. I don't want to see Roy going downhill--it's been hard enough for me to get to where I like him on the show. I need to see him established as a hero that deserves to be on the team. Catman or a version thereof probably should be on GOTHAM. Rag Doll and Vandal Savage would both be great on THE FLASH--I think that show needs those kind of villains more. I think we already have a form of the Suicide Squad, when they do Ollie's flashbacks--but Waller is so evil, I need to see why the Suicide Squad is any good at all--so I would be happy if they introduced Rick Flag as the moral stalwart of the Squad. I never read CHECKMATE--did it have anything to do with the Manhunters--given they introduced Mark Shaw, I want them to do more with the Manhunters. I'd like to see the whole team take an extended vacation in Nanda Parbat--and maybe introduce Boston Brand whlle they're at it.

I'm confused why you think of Thea as a villain already? She hasn't done anything except associate with Merlyn, who is after all her father. Yes, he's a villain, but Sara was an assassin and the others willingly associated with her, Roy killed people while on Mirakuru, Diggle's got a child with a woman who works for ARGUS and we've seen how questionable their ethics are, and Oliver's spent time in the Russian mob, and that's just for starters. Thea's just a confused kid whose had her world turned upside down multiple times by everyone she trusts and is now looking for help from the wrong person, but it seems odd to label her a villain when she's never actually done anything you know, villainous.

[Jim Kelly]

Had nothing to do with the Manhunters, they're more sci-fi . . .

It's a long story, but when Mark Shaw first showed up in 1ST ISSUE SPECIAL 5, I don't think Jack Kirby established the Manhunters as anything more than a global undercover crimefighter organization. Steve Englehart later tied this together with the Green Lanterns in his JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA run. And then post-Crisis, the Manhunter thing got way of control in the MILLENNIUM event. But I'm just thinking of the global crime fighter league that Kirby introduced, with the Grandmaster and Mark Shaw--which seems like a counterweight to the League of Assassins. Possibly with ties to the whole Paul Kirk story--although I'm not sure Kirby intended that, either.

It's sort of like Intergang. Yeah, Intergang is tied into Apokolips. But you could have Intergang in a story, without ever bringing the New Gods into it, and the organization would work just fine as a global crime mob.

[Jim Kelly]

I'm confused why you think of Thea as a villain already?

At what point in the story is Terra a super-villain in THE JUDAS CONTRACT? Granted, Thea's relationship with her father isn't anywhere as gross as Tara's with Slade--but I see the two being used in very similar ways. And Thea knows what she's doing. She's training to kill people with a super-villain who killed over 500 people. And she's lying about it. If she's not a super-villain yet, she's in training to be one. And I would be disappointed if she didn't continue on that road, as she seems to work better as a villain than a perpetual hostage.

[Kalen O.]

At what point in the story is Terra a super-villain in THE JUDAS CONTRACT? Granted, Thea's relationship with her father isn't anywhere as gross as Tara's with Slade--but I see the two being used in very similar ways. And Thea knows what she's doing. She's training to kill people with a super-villain who killed over 500 people. And she's lying about it. If she's not a super-villain yet, she's in training to be one. And I would be disappointed if she didn't continue on that road, as she seems to work better as a villain than a perpetual hostage.

Except your projecting things onto the character from other characters and other stories. The sole motivation we have seen from Thea for training with Malcolm is she wants to be strong, she wants to not be afraid anymore. There has been no mention of her killing people - yes, her training could ultimately be used to kill people, but that's a choice she'll make if and when that does happen. The training itself is just a tool for her to use however she chooses - the killing people part doesn't automatically come as part of the package. Yes, she's lying about her connection with Malcolm, but literally every single character on this show lies to every other character every single episode.

Comparing Terra in the Judas Contract to Thea at this stage of her character arc is apples and oranges, because Terra was already a villain when we the reader met her...because of things she had ALREADY done, even if those things weren't revealed until later. Terra was a supervillain the moment Terra did villainous things, not before.

Yes, Thea might end up becoming a villain, but at this stage she's simply a character making poor choices, same as every other character on this show has done. We saw in last night's episode that Felicity created a supervirus that was used to hold an entire city hostage. Without her (illegal) work in the past, that would not have been possible. Why isn't she a villain for that and yet Thea is a villain when she's yet to harm a single person, either intentionally (like Malcolm) or unintentionally (like Felicity and Roy)?

[Conch22]

The show producers have discussed wanting to use Nightwing in the past.

So I'm just gonna throw it out there that this is a Fringe type situation where Dick and Roy were childhood friends and have a wierd ESP connection where they dream about each others murders, seeing themselves committing the others crimes. Who killed Sara? Special agent Dick Grayson! Yeah, probably pretty unlikely, but I'm putting it out there given the amount of misdirects we've had.

My initial theory was Slade turned Roy into a sleeper agent when he had him captive. Maybe the footage from next weeks is all in Roys head/ a dream sequence. Him tossing three arrows through her torso gives a hint of mirakuru recurrence if that is how it played out.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Good episode.
What an Ending. Can't wait for the next episode.

Btw. Anything plot wise happen with Laurel? I forwarded all of her scenes.

[Conch22]

Good episode.
What an Ending. Can't wait for the next episode.

Btw. Anything plot wise happen with Laurel? I forwarded all of her scenes.

She had a temporary promotion to full district attorney because the actual DA was out of town. During the dark city segment with the banks, she asserted her veto authority during a time of crisis and ordered the cops to send out an anti riot unit to protect the banks. This somehow made things worse than letting the banks to be broken into by rioters. Capt.Lance chewed out Laurel for bad judgement and asked what was eating at her (emotionally). She said its super secret, he said share it with somebody kiddo. She then shared it with her boxing coach Wildcat and he said something about now he knows how to train her and that she'll probably never catch her sisters killer, so forget that noise and focus on those like him. She chose the black boxing outfit (because foreshadowing)

and her father straight up asked her if she was drinking again (due to her behavior). I feel Laurel gets more fan hate than she deserves

[Sandy Hausler]

The show producers have discussed wanting to use Nightwing in the past.

So I'm just gonna throw it out there that this is a Fringe type situation where Dick and Roy were childhood friends and have a wierd ESP connection where they dream about each others murders, seeing themselves committing the others crimes. Who killed Sara? Special agent Dick Grayson! Yeah, probably pretty unlikely, but I'm putting it out there given the amount of misdirects we've had.

My initial theory was Slade turned Roy into a sleeper agent when he had him captive. Maybe the footage from next weeks is all in Roys head/ a dream sequence. Him tossing three arrows through her torso gives a hint of mirakuru recurrence if that is how it played out.

I think in that Nightwing is (or was) Dick Grayson, it's not likely to happen -- too connected to the Batman world. Unless they create a Nightwing who is NOT Dick Grayson -- but that would crack the internet.

Sandy Hausler