Arrow

[The Darknight Detective]

My thing isn't whether or not he should have helped her out. I honestly think he should have, and I can understand his reasons for not wanting to, but going around her to tell Ted not to train her, and on top of that telling her not to do it (because he cares about her and all that jazz) is ridiculous. Unless he's paying her bills, he has no right to tell her, or "suggest" what she should or should not do. Drunk Laurel would have never taken his crap. I don't care if people hated that version of the character, but, for me, that was when she was at her most entertaining.

I completely agree that Ollie shouldn't be treating Laurel like a child. She is not his teenage ward.

[Kalen O.]

I don't see how that's hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is telling someone not to do something that you're actively doing at that time. That was true of Ollie with the Huntress, but not now. I mean, wouldn't we all be hypocrites then? We all have lied at least once in our lives, so we can't tell our children not to do so without be charged as a hypocrite?

No, that's not all hypocrisy is. Actively judging someone for making the same mistakes in the past that you yourself made in the past is hypocritical. Telling our children not to lie when we ourselves have done so is a voice of experience imparting a lesson based on those experiences - and the key part is the parent isn't usually judging the child for telling a lie. A parent who's taken drugs telling their child not to do drugs isn't hypocritical. A parent who's done drugs condemning their child for doing drugs the same as they once did IS. The narrative made a point in several scenes to detail how Ted's experiences mirrored Oliver's, but Ted had already drawn the same conclusions from those experiences that Oliver had drawn from his. The only lesson Oliver was able to impart was that he shouldn't have given up on his apprentice....but until the very end of the episode that wasn't what Oliver was judging Ted for. As far as all Ted's other previous and alleged previous actions were concerned, Oliver was not a voice of experience or moral authority, and thus his condemning Ted IN THE PRESENT for those actions, nearly identical to Oliver's own past misdeeds....yes, I find that hypocritical.

Ted could have just as easily said to Oliver 'I seem to remember a lot of dead bodies showing up with arrows when you first got to town.' And then Ollie would have said something like 'Well I learned my lesson. I don't kill anymore.' And then Ted would have gone 'Yeah, so did I. That's why I quit, dude.'

When you break it down like that, I'm not really sure what else to call Oliver's judgmental behavior other than hypocritical.

[The Darknight Detective]

No, that's not all hypocrisy is. Actively judging someone for making the same mistakes in the past that you yourself made in the past is hypocritical. Telling our children not to lie when we ourselves have done so is a voice of experience imparting a lesson based on those experiences. That's not what happened here, because Ted's experiences mirrored Oliver's, and Ted had already drawn the same conclusions from those experiences that Oliver had drawn from his. There was no lesson to impart, Oliver was not a voice of experience or moral authority, and thus his condemning Ted IN THE PRESENT for actions in the past that were no different from his own past actions....yes, I find that hypocritical.

Ted could have just as easily said to Oliver 'I seem to remember a lot of dead bodies showing up with arrows when you first got to town.' And then Ollie would have said something like 'Well I learned my lesson. I don't kill anymore.' And then Ted would have gone 'Yeah, so did I. That's why I quit, dude.'

When you break it down like that, I'm not really sure what else to call Oliver's judgmental behavior other than hypocritical.

With all due respect, I still don't see it as hypocrisy. Sanctimoniousness? Now that I can see.

[PiercedMonk]

Re-watch season 1 and look at how he treats Helena in her initial appearance. This type of thing is not new for him. It got to the point were the writers had to derail Helena's character to justify Oliver's hypocrisy.

Oh, absolutely. Those Huntress episodes are some of the worst of season one, and that's saying something.

When does he start spouting off about how the Republicans are all fascists?

Not soon enough!

That I don't see. If I'm a reformed thief, does that make me a hypocrite if I try to stop others from following that path? Nope. IMO, the word "hypocrite" gets mixed up with "sanctimonious," the latter which may or may not be the case in regard to Ollie (or the reformed-thief me from an alternate universe ).

The problem is that Oliver is still willing to kill, even after his vow. There have been several points along the way where somebody, usually Dig, points out to Ollie that he said he's no longer going to kill the bad guys, and Ollie's all like, "Nah, I really don't like this dude, so special circumstances, Bro. Fist bump!"

Oliver is willing to go to those extremes, yet he constantly acts like anyone else who has killed in self defense or in defense of others is the worst sort of human trash. Unless they're blonde professional assassins that he's sleeping with, in which he's just mildly annoyed whenever they kill.

Look, Pre-Flashpoint Green Arrow is easily my favourite superhero, and his fallibility, including his hypocrisy, is an aspect of the character that I like. It makes him human. The Oliver Queen on 'Arrow' though, lacks all the charm of that character. He just comes off as a patronising douchebag.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

They've said that while Laurel will don the Black Canary costume it doesn't mean that she'll be battle ready for awhile, sounding as if she's going to go out the first few times and get her behind kicked, but I've forgotten what Oliver does for a job now anyway...

[SXVA]

Yikes! That was the worst episode of Arrow imo.

Oliver was a complete jerk and hypocrite in some parts although sort of redeemed himself with Roy toward the end, and it's laughable that they were considering turning on Roy in the name of justice with all the bodies they've left in their path as a team, and that Roy most likely wasn't even in his right mind.

And then Oliver acting like he controls Laurel under the farcical premise of caring for her, which is a pet peeve of mine when a character [usually male] will attempt to control another character [usually Female] or continuously lie to her face under the false premise that it's in anyway about her.

And the flashback part of the episode continues to confuse me and to where i'm not seeing the relevance as of yet.

Laurel was actually the best part of this episode i felt.

Disagree about the Huntress episodes being terrible, those are some of my early favorites of the series. There was a very intriguing connection between Arrow/Huntress.

[The Darknight Detective]

The problem is that Oliver is still willing to kill, even after his vow. There have been several points along the way where somebody, usually Dig, points out to Ollie that he said he's no longer going to kill the bad guys, and Ollie's all like, "Nah, I really don't like this dude, so special circumstances, Bro. Fist bump!"

Okay, that is a valid point. I can see hypocrisy a little now in regard to that.

[The Darknight Detective]

Laurel was actually the best part of this episode i felt.
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Agreed. She looked pretty fit while training with Ted, too.

[HsssH]

I think we should be used by now to the fact that Ollie is an asshole. Thats why when he actually does something nice (what every decent human being would do) for Thea or Roy it feels like something special happened.

it's laughable that they were considering turning on Roy in the name of justice with all the bodies they've left in their path as a team

Yeah, but at least it could be reasoned that they were very emotional at that moment and that plan was dropped after few minutes.

[SXVA]

Agreed. She looked pretty fit while training with Ted, too.

Definitely, she was legit with that fighting and i was believing every second of it, i wanted to cheer for her... it was like she was pulverizing her critics over the last few years. Hehe.

And i loved how she still went to Wildcat in the end and continuing what she wanted with her quest to avenge Sarah despite what Oliver who refused to even train her demanded of her. I only wish she would of smashed Oliver with a right hook before she did it. Aha.

Yeah, but at least it could be reasoned that they were very emotional at that moment and that plan was dropped after few minutes.

True. I can ultimately look past it considering it was all in the heat of the moment, and emotion was running high and whatever but Diggle's self righteous speech about how there can't be two separate rules and everything else that was happening in the episode which i felt was hypocritical didn't help in looking past it for now.

[PiercedMonk]

Disagree about the Huntress episodes being terrible, those are some of my early favorites of the series. There was a very intriguing connection between Arrow/Huntress.

I found those episodes to be very frustrating. Both Laurel and Helena were written very inconsistently. They were both portrayed as being catty and irrational, and Oliver and Tommy would share looks that seemed to say, "Bitches be crazy, amIright?" That combined with Oliver mansplaining at Helena why killing is bad, when he himself was still the conductor on Starling City's murder-train made the Huntress episodes difficult to watch.

[SXVA]

I found those episodes to be very frustrating. Both Laurel and Helena were written very inconsistently. They were both portrayed as being catty and irrational, and Oliver and Tommy would share looks that seemed to say, "Bitches be crazy, amIright?" That combined with Oliver mansplaining at Helena why killing is bad, when he himself was still the conductor on Starling City's murder-train made the Huntress episodes difficult to watch.

Yeah, i can't deny any of those points and would agree with them for the most part.

I guess for me i was able to look past some of that in how i enjoyed the connection i felt between Helena/Oliver, and i know there's a lot of people out there who don't like Jessica de Gouw's portrayal but i found myself liking her in the role to the point i was captivated by her, and i was entertained by how she was such the aggressor and overshadowed Oliver at the time... where he's like, "no, no don't do that" and she's like *shotgun click* boom to the kneecap. Reminded me of a Female Punisher bringing the pain to the mafiosos.

Oliver not being able to save her in the way he wanted to also gave it that much more weight for me.

That being said, i can understand why some don't share in my enthusiasm for the episodes.

[Agent Z]

Yikes! That was the worst episode of Arrow imo.

Oliver was a complete jerk and hypocrite in some parts although sort of redeemed himself with Roy toward the end, and it's laughable that they were considering turning on Roy in the name of justice with all the bodies they've left in their path as a team, and that Roy most likely wasn't even in his right mind.

And then Oliver acting like he controls Laurel under the farcical premise of caring for her, which is a pet peeve of mine when a character [usually male] will attempt to control another character [usually Female] or continuously lie to her face under the false premise that it's in anyway about her.

And the flashback part of the episode continues to confuse me and to where i'm not seeing the relevance as of yet.

Laurel was actually the best part of this episode i felt.

Disagree about the Huntress episodes being terrible, those are some of my early favorites of the series. There was a very intriguing connection between Arrow/Huntress.

Really? Most of their interactions are harshly criticizing each other's methods (which initially aren't that different) or trying to kill each other. Not really seeing a fascinating relationship there. It's a lot better when she's paired off with Batman or Nightwing since those heroes at least practice what they preach.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Other then the regular actors the rest of the acting in this episode was awful bought the ep down for me.

I might aswell embrace Laurel now. Since its confirmed shes gonna be ya know.

[MichaelC]

Huntress just flat-out didn't work as a season-one character. Season one Ollie is himself a borderline monster. Huntress is supposed to contrast Batman, one of the strictest moralists in comics. To make her work as a contrast to season one Ollie was literally impossible, and the attempt was a mess, requiring them to write her very moustache-twirly to even pretend there was a contrast.