View Poll Results: Do You Want a Batman Movie That Has A Robin Again?

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  • Yes, I want it. Batman Should Have A Robin

    27 72.97%
  • No. I donít want it. Batman works best alone cinematically

    3 8.11%
  • Iím Good Either Way

    7 18.92%
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  1. #31
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    Adding a younger side-kick doesn't immediately give you Batman Forever or a Marvel-style film. I can work but would require a bit more finesse to balance correctly.
    I know that it can work, like I said it's not a matter of if it can be done but whether it's likely to be done. And I just don't think they're likely to add Robin and not go much lighter with it.

    Titans has a tone fitting for the Snyder-verse and features a perfectly fine Robin, both the older Dick and then Jason. Dismissing it as a niche streaming property doesn't disprove that it works.
    Again, not saying it can't work, and Titans proves it can, but it's still fair to dismiss it because naturally a niche streaming property has less oversight and more freedom than a film ever will.

    Personally, while I'm very excited for The Batman, I am kind of tired of overly violent and dark Batman movies. It's boring and expected now and I think adding Robin would be a chance to do something different and more complex with the character. Maybe he could even go a whole movie without killing someone.
    You say that like we've had a ton of dark Batman movies - sure they've all been dark this millennium but it's only been 4, 2 a decade. The 00's had Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. The 10's had The Dark Knight Rises and Batman v Superman (the JL movies are too much an ensemble to count). And the first three honestly aren't even that violent - intense maybe, but not that violent. Nolan's trilogy was no more violent than any MCU movie, it's just the tone was darker. Now Batman v Superman, yeah, the warehouse scene alone hoo-boy...awesome, but very violent that fight.

    Again, I guess it's just because I'm thinking of it in terms of superhero films rather than just Batman films - when I'm getting soooo much lighter fare already, having just one reliably "dark" hero is the more refreshing change of pace for me. We're not really hurting for happy smiling heroes at the moment you've got to admit. Dark hero films are relatively few, and honestly most haven't been done well. In the past ten years we've had The Dark Knight Rises, Kick-Ass 2, Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, Deadpool, Deadpool 2, Logan, Venom, BOP, and the Snyder Cut. And only like 4/5 of those 10 were good - 5/6 out of 11 if we want to include Joker. Then we've got over 20 MCU films (I'm not going to try and do the math on which ones were done in the past ten years), a few non-MCU Spider-Mans, some Fox X-Men, the 2 Wonder Womans, Aquaman, Shazam, and arguably the Whedon Cut of JL on the lighter side. And honestly even that feels like a cheat because Deadpool 1 & 2 and BOP are really light in tone films just get lumped into dark cause R rated violence. And then you got the first Suicide Squad somewhere in the middle of the light/dark but definitely in the not a good movie camp.

    The genre's kind of light hearted heavy right now, which isn't bad but I'd prefer a bit more balance. To me Batman kind of helps off set some of that mountain of bright cheery hero films a bit.

  2. #32
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Sorry, but I disagree - the Arkham games are video games and gamers tend to like darker/more violent anyways, plus again different medium than live action. By cartoons I assume you mean the animated movies aimed at an older niche audience, which again is different - if you mean series, then I really disagree because I don't consider any of the cartoons that dark. And no, I don't consider Titans valid, it's still a very niche series with a relatively small audience, smaller than a CW show I'm gonna guess - never mind that it's post his time as Batman's sidekick. Sure, you're right in that it doesn't necessarily need to take over or derail the tone - but even though it doesn't necessarily need to, odds are that WB execs will disagree. Live action blockbuster movies are much, much bigger deals than everything else you've listed combined, so there's a lot more hands getting in the pie, a lot more chefs in the kitchen - basically the odds of some executive or producer or whoever saying "We can't show a kid in danger and have such a dark tone, it will bother the audience too much! We can only do one or the other, so lighten it up!" goes up tremendously. So yeah, there's no reason it can't be done, but there's every reason to believe that it won't be.
    I feel like the Arkham games show that it can work in execution even if aimed at a different audience because of the aesthetic of those games, and I feel like that is true for the animated films and the darker stories Robin was in within the cartoons. And I don't think Titans being niche means it wouldn't work in a movie either. I get blockbusters are a big thing but I don't think that negates what other media with the character or identity show.

    I don't think the WB execs would mind if the writer/director are able to deliver a vision they're happy with that includes Robin so I don't think they'd dismiss it out of hand just because it's a child character. I don't think they'd jump to that immediately.
    Of course the films don't need to be kept so dark, I'm clearly only speaking of my own preference, my own hopes and desires, yours will clearly differ from mine. However, I disagree with the last bit - you may want variety in Batman films, but I want variety in the superhero genre as a whole, and if Batman becomes lighter we'd lose out on variety, because the vast majority of these films are already lighter. Most superhero films are either part of the MCU, or are trying to copy the MCU, so most follow the quippy action comedy route. The films that differ from that lightness are a super teeny tiny minority to begin with, and it will only shrink further with the loss of Fox getting bought by Disney. That makes Batman and related properties one of the only alternatives to that lighter fare we have. So while you might prefer a lighter take on Batman, and while that might provide variety to Batman films as a whole, it'd just further cement the lack of variety of the genre itself even further. That means if someone wants a darker tone superhero movie, they'd have to look into some really obscure and mostly unknown indie films like Super, Defendor, and...the fact I ran out of list at two kind of illustrates the problem.
    I feel like we'll get enough variety from WB moving forward more or less.

    Of course I don't even need a lighter Batman, I just don't think we need one that necesarilly continues to follow the Nolan aesthetic/tone or doubles down on it like Reeves seems to be doing.

  3. #33
    Son of Satan DevilBat66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    For an animated movie, sure. For live action? No. And it has nothing to do with "realism" - nothing about Batman is realistic. But having a kid sidekick would by necessity force them to lighten up the tone of a live action movie more than I want from my Batman movie - we've already got the lighthearted action comedy angle covered by the entire MCU, so I'd like Batman films to be a bit darker and grittier just to provide a balance or counter to that. As much as people like to rag on the "dark and gritty and edgy" crap here, it really composes a too small portion of the superhero film landscape currently - and good/well done darker superhero films comprise an even smaller portion of that pie. And don't tell me that adding Robin doesn't exclude the film from being dark, because we know that's not likely to be true - it may hold in the comics, but trying to do the kid sidekick in a film that dark for a mainstream audience won't fly (and yes I know Hit Girl in Kick-Ass, but it wasn't mainstream really, it wasn't a famous property, it wasn't made by a major studio, and it was before the MCU came to completely dominate and define the genre for most people). And yes, I've seen season one of Titans where Robin got pretty dark and gritty at times - but a streaming show that aired originally on a niche comic book streaming site is far from being mainstream.

    Keeping Batman solo allows them to keep his films darker, and there's a lack of good dark superhero films as is. If anything, with Disney acquiring Fox and the rights to X-Men and Deadpool and Blade, that allowance for darker superhero films is only going to shrink even further. I love the MCU as much as the next guy, but I also like variety, there needs to be more than just action comedies in the genre. And I don't see Robin entering the movie and WB not wanting it to go lighter. We can argue over it, but I just don't see it. We need to allow the opportunity for films like The Dark Knight and Logan and Joker and what The Batman looks to be.
    Pretty much exactly "this".

    I dig Robin.

    In comics and animated flicks and, yes, in the goofy 60's show I grew up with.

    I just don't think it really works in a live action serious setting for pretty much the reasons Vakanai has stated throughout the thread.
    Batman - Daredevil

  4. #34
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    Honestly, as far as realism and tone is concerned (not necessarily the same thing, mind you), I don't see why he can't work. If you have him start at 15, that's very nearly when most males are nearly fully grown, anyway (there's a reason most people don't grow in height between the license they get when they're 16 and when they're renewing it for the umpteenth time in their 20s). As far as tone, if anyone here is familiar with the original tv show Veronica Mars, that was a tv show about a teen sleuth whose cases included the murder of her best friend, a bus full of high school kids getting killed when a bomb went off in their school bus, a secret society where congressmen killed people and threw them in wood shredders at their cabins, and her own rape. Just because a property includes a teenager in a prominent role does not mean it's going to be all prom dates and first kisses.
    "Overturn everything! Can't he just write an executive order that says: 'Everything Trump did is now overturned. F**k that guy.' signed, Joe Biden."

  5. #35
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    Reeves is a Robin's fan, so I guess it's inevitable.
    But I'm not sure about possible execution.

  6. #36
    Fantastic Member Spencermalley935's Avatar
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    I'd absolutely be down to see a traditional version of Robin done justice in a serious live-action format.

    If it's an origin story for young Dick Grayson, There are two things I'd really like it to have A)Involve Tony Zucco in his parent's murder B) Whatever his age (child or teenager), Have him be an actual character with agency and not just a plot device for Bruce's development (Don't just have him mope and sulk around Wayne Manor for the entire movie and have him ask to be trained right before the credits role)

  7. #37
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I feel like the Arkham games show that it can work in execution even if aimed at a different audience because of the aesthetic of those games, and I feel like that is true for the animated films and the darker stories Robin was in within the cartoons. And I don't think Titans being niche means it wouldn't work in a movie either. I get blockbusters are a big thing but I don't think that negates what other media with the character or identity show.
    I think you've misunderstood me - I didn't say that Titans being niche doesn't mean it wouldn't work in a movie, I said Titans was allowed to go that way because it's niche. I'm not saying it can't work in film because it totally can, I'm saying I don't think WB would allow them to do it in film. Because film isn't niche, certainly a Batman film isn't niche, it's more prone to mandates and meddling. I just don't believe for a minute that the execs would allow the film to both include Robin and be that dark - they'd ask for it to be either one or the other. That's what you have to convince me on, not that you could do Robin and still be dark in a live action film, because I've already said that I agree on that, but that they wouldn't do it. Can't and won't are different things here.

    I don't think the WB execs would mind if the writer/director are able to deliver a vision they're happy with that includes Robin so I don't think they'd dismiss it out of hand just because it's a child character. I don't think they'd jump to that immediately.
    You don't think, but I do. Right now neither of us have facts to back up our opinions here, there's no similar film of DC's we can point to with a kid sidekick and a dark tone. Not in the live action theatrical category. I just simply don't think they would allow it to have both Robin and be dark, and you do. There's not really any way either of us can prove it to the other outside of it actually happening. They might not care if Robin is a little assassin in the DTVs, or in a niche streaming series when he's all growed up, but a big Hollywood film is different - I think they'd see it as too much a risk. I think they wouldn't believe audiences would be comfortable with what looks like child endangerment in a darker, grittier film.

    I feel like we'll get enough variety from WB moving forward more or less.
    I agree, but the problem is I agree we'll get variety because Batman and related characters will be providing the darker set of films to make it a variety. Not counting the Snyder films because he's done, which of the DC films are dark? JOKER about a Batman villain, The Batman looks to be dark and is about, well, Batman, and while I don't consider them dark in tone just really violent, the two Suicide Squad movies and Birds of Prey - films which are also to greater and lesser extents vehicles for Harley Quinn, another Batman character. Wonder Woman movies, Shazam, Aquaman, are all much more on the lighter side. Maybe Black Adam will be dark, but right now we know to little to say. Flash might end up being dark, but it has two Batmen, and again to early to say what the tone will be. I just get the feeling we'll be getting variety because the Batman stuff will provide the dark contrast to the other films' light. So if Batman did go lighter that variety wouldn't be there, or at least wouldn't be there to that extent.

    Of course I don't even need a lighter Batman, I just don't think we need one that necesarilly continues to follow the Nolan aesthetic/tone or doubles down on it like Reeves seems to be doing.
    And to that - kind of what we got with Affleck and Keaton isn't it? Affleck's Batman was dark and violent, but has yet to fall into Nolan's tone or aesthetic, Keaton's probably going to bring in a tone and aesthetic similar to the old Burton movies, so only one out of three are seemingly falling into a more Nolan-esque mold. Yes, he is the main Batman for the films going forward, but it'll have been almost a decade since Nolan's last Batman film and we've gotten multiple Affleck Batman showings in the interim even if he never had a solo. So we might not "need" one that feels like the Nolan aesthetic/tone, but you really can't say that's all we get and should be tired of the same thing over and over - we've had one different take with Affleck who might still do more films after Flash (you never know) and we will be getting a different one with Keaton back as well.

    And honestly, now that I typed that all out, Affleck or Keaton seem like the better picks if we were to get a Batman and Robin. The DCEU is probably going to be much lighter post Snyder anyways, leaving the Pattinson Batman to bring the darkness, and the actors are old enough that training a replacement for them feels like a more natural fit anyways. So really, if we do get a Batman and Robin again, it should be with one of those two and in the DCEU. We'd all get to have our cakes and eat it too that way...

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    Adding a younger side-kick doesn't immediately give you Batman Forever or a Marvel-style film. I can work but would require a bit more finesse to balance correctly.

    Titans has a tone fitting for the Snyder-verse and features a perfectly fine Robin, both the older Dick and then Jason. Dismissing it as a niche streaming property doesn't disprove that it works.

    Personally, while I'm very excited for The Batman, I am kind of tired of overly violent and dark Batman movies. It's boring and expected now and I think adding Robin would be a chance to do something different and more complex with the character. Maybe he could even go a whole movie without killing someone.
    The problem with the Titans TV show isn't that its on a 'niche streaming service', the problem is that it was never good.

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