People hated Heroes in Crisis, has that change?

[BohemiaDrinker]

But yah it appears the consensus at least on this forum is people dont like hic or the journey he's been on or currently on...

Here's the thing: this was not a "journey", in the traditional sense.

This was just the final step of a deliberate sabotage that lasted over ten years. All that came since were course corrections due to it making the situation unsustainable.

Treating it as "a story" requires too much undeserved good will towards it.

[Drako]

No hic explicitly states his powers are outta wack...

Obviously the writer stated this due to a vocal backlash.

For me Hals meltdown. And turning to evil as parallax and eventual redemption in final night and later johns book Rebirth is a spectacular journey.

And I'm personally pleased wally has an awesome journey to follow to now...

But yah it appears the consensus at least on this forum is people dont like hic or the journey he's been on or currently on...

Trashing on your character then retconning your way into the previous status quo is not a journey, in my opinion.

I'm enjoying his current story on the Flash, even if most of that story was about cleaning the mess that Heroes in Crisis did.

[Agent Z]

A few have made this same sentiment...

I guess my question in regard to "wally being **** on"

Is this how people feel about the endless villian superman plots? Or superman been mind controlled? Or superman turns evil for one reason or another... or is mind controlled by ivy for example.... is that to shitting on superman?

My thought has always been that people snap. People snap for different reasons. I legitimately am diagnosed bipolar and have been hospitalized for it.

Hal Jordan snapping afte coast city and becoming parallax never felt off for me.

Wally having been literally disappeared and lost to the universe... then pulled out of nothingness... who is to say his mind isn't broken... his powers are out of wack...

People claim. They didnt take mental health seriously enough in hic... it was to surface level...

But when perry was diagnosed with cancer I cant say that serious subject matter recieved any deep dive analysis.

Any case Ill keep trying to respond to these comments.

Thanks for the input

There are plenty of mental health professionals and people who deal with mental health problems who have pointed out why it was handled poorly.

As for Perry, just because no one complained about it doesn't make Heroes in Crisis better. It's also possible some people did have an issue with it but that is neither here nor there.

[Gaius]

No hic explicitly states his powers are outta wack...

Obviously the writer stated this due to a vocal backlash.

For me Hals meltdown. And turning to evil as parallax and eventual redemption in final night and later johns book Rebirth is a spectacular journey.

And I'm personally pleased wally has an awesome journey to follow to now...

But yah it appears the consensus at least on this forum is people dont like hic or the journey he's been on or currently on...

Emerald Twilight wasn't exactly an uncontroversial story in it's own day and no one on that book came it out with the intention it would setup Hal's redemption almost a decade later by different people and under new management.

[Menacer]

Emerald Twilight wasn't exactly an uncontroversial story in it's own day and no one on that book came it out with the intention it would setup Hal's redemption almost a decade later by different people and under new management.

I don't personal care whether its planned or not.

If Im entertained by the drama of the story then Im having a good time.

But you certainly dont have to like it.

And I do understand everyones complaints.

For me the retconning or course correction does make hic far more enjoyable... know I got a cool journey to follow.

But apparently thats just me.

[Stanlos]

Emerald Twilight wasn't exactly an uncontroversial story in it's own day and no one on that book came it out with the intention it would setup Hal's redemption almost a decade later by different people and under new management.

Didn't Emerald Twilight have direct links to another big event where Coast City died?

[TheRay]

Also one of the better responses in this thread.

I try to not take this as seriously because I honestly want to see more different stories, it wouldn't be interesting if everyone was just completely crazy with the powers. Like if people had it their way, Flash couldn't even be touched or seen by anyone, what story would you even do with that?

[lefthanded]

Heroes in Crisis is not a good story on its own merits. The followup redemption arcs only takes some of the sting away (from tarnishing a hero), but doesn't make the HiC story better at all.

For example, if HiC used Lagoon Boy instead of Wally as the cause, and then over the next years had stories that redeemed Lagoon Boy, it doesn't make the HiC story land any better. Sure, there would be less outrage over making Lagoon Boy a villain so Lagoon-HiC would be less controversial, but the story still is a mess. Personally, I don't care that Harley beat Batman at something or that they 'ruined Wally', but when you combine a mess of a story with making characters people like look bad, you're asking for universal disgust.


A comparable storyline I think of is Identity Crisis.
1. Both IC and HiC have the inciting murder(s), that our heroes set out to solve.
2. They have their prime suspects (Harley and Booster in HiC, Doctor Light in IC) to track down while other characters work on investigating
3. The underlying element is a previously unknown history of our superheroes (Sanctuary/mental health in HiC, and mindwipes in IC)
4. The twists comes when it is revealed that the suspect is not a villain but a superhero (well, superhero's wife in IC, and Wally in HiC).
5. Both did the mistake based on mental health (insanity with Jean, and grief with Wally) and attempted to cover it up.

Where IC is successful, is that the Mindwipe storyline is just a red herring, and so does not need to hold up to close scrutiny within the confines of this specific story.

In contrast, HiC has the mental health be integral to the story (it is the cause of Wally's mistakes, and the threat of public exposure of Sanctuary is *important*), and yet barely develops it. As such, it doesn't hold up at all to the scrutiny it deserves as an integral plot element.

Putting aside the kneejerk 'character assassination' response (Wally, Zatanna mindwiping villains, Jean), Jean's actions seem reactionary while Wally's actions seem incoherent yet calculated. When you add on the fact that time-travel is an important part of the cover-up, everything that Wally did seems less understandable from a character perspective. His plan seems to be to frame innocent people, reflex to a murder-suicide, and expose the existence of Sanctuary to the public. Exposing Sanctuary to Lois doesn't seem to do anything to help with fixing the mistake or helping the cover-up. What you end up with is a twist that doesn't make the preceding issues read better.

[Agent Z]

I try to not take this as seriously because I honestly want to see more different stories, it wouldn't be interesting if everyone was just completely crazy with the powers. Like if people had it their way, Flash couldn't even be touched or seen by anyone, what story would you even do with that?

No one is asking for that so can we please stop with the strawmanning? It's just tiresome.

[Agent Z]

Heroes in Crisis is not a good story on its own merits. The followup redemption arcs only takes some of the sting away (from tarnishing a hero), but doesn't make the HiC story better at all.

For example, if HiC used Lagoon Boy instead of Wally as the cause, and then over the next years had stories that redeemed Lagoon Boy, it doesn't make the HiC story land any better. Sure, there would be less outrage over making Lagoon Boy a villain so Lagoon-HiC would be less controversial, but the story still is a mess. Personally, I don't care that Harley beat Batman at something or that they 'ruined Wally', but when you combine a mess of a story with making characters people like look bad, you're asking for universal disgust.


A comparable storyline I think of is Identity Crisis.
1. Both IC and HiC have the inciting murder(s), that our heroes set out to solve.
2. They have their prime suspects (Harley and Booster in HiC, Doctor Light in IC) to track down while other characters work on investigating
3. The underlying element is a previously unknown history of our superheroes (Sanctuary/mental health in HiC, and mindwipes in IC)
4. The twists comes when it is revealed that the suspect is not a villain but a superhero (well, superhero's wife in IC, and Wally in HiC).
5. Both did the mistake based on mental health (insanity with Jean, and grief with Wally) and attempted to cover it up.

Where IC is successful, is that the Mindwipe storyline is just a red herring, and so does not need to hold up to close scrutiny within the confines of this specific story.

In contrast, HiC has the mental health be integral to the story (it is the cause of Wally's mistakes, and the threat of public exposure of Sanctuary is *important*), and yet barely develops it. As such, it doesn't hold up at all to the scrutiny it deserves as an integral plot element.

Putting aside the kneejerk 'character assassination' response (Wally, Zatanna mindwiping villains, Jean), Jean's actions seem reactionary while Wally's actions seem incoherent yet calculated. When you add on the fact that time-travel is an important part of the cover-up, everything that Wally did seems less understandable from a character perspective. His plan seems to be to frame innocent people, reflex to a murder-suicide, and expose the existence of Sanctuary to the public. Exposing Sanctuary to Lois doesn't seem to do anything to help with fixing the mistake or helping the cover-up. What you end up with is a twist that doesn't make the preceding issues read better.

Jean's actions have the same issue as Wally's since she brings a flame thrower with her to disguise how Sue died and uses her knowledge of crime scene investigation to cover up her tracks. Not to mention her plan to make the heroes go back to their loved ones is ridiculous.

[Menacer]

Can you stop doing this in so many of your posts? Look, lots of us have been reading for 20+ years and still continue to. Flexing like this just comes across as flaunting how much disposable income you have and wanting to prove you're a big fan.

You're on these forums and discussing the characters in greater detail. You already have made your commitment to being a fan known by doing so. Flexing about how many trades you read isn't going to make anyone take your opinion more or less seriously.

No amount of reading current material (and I've read Infinite Frontier 0-3) is going to change that HiC is a bad story. You liked it. That's genuinely great and I'm glad for you, but please stop implying that simply continuing to read mediocre stories trying to fix a bad one is some grand tapestry. It isn't. They're just trying to bilk us out of what money we've got until we don't care and the new generation comes in. Take it from fans who have been reading several decades and have been on this ride several times. It's not new.

Its a forum for comic readers. Its not odd that I discuss how much I collect or read. Or what I'm following. No interest in flexing.

As for actually collecting and reading.

Vast amounts of books are purchased at used book stores.

Trades can go for 10 or less. Or online where I can buy 20 or 30 tpb books at about 2 or 3 dollars each.

The library also has books for loan for free.

I also buy new, but yes thats more expensive.

Declaring what I can or cant discuss on a public forum is rather odd... though...

[TheRay]

No one is asking for that so can we please stop with the strawmanning? It's just tiresome.

No one is asking for that? What the **** are you talking about?
https://www.quora.com/How-can-Flash-...ow-can-he-lose

[The Cool Thatguy]

Heroes in Crisis is not a good story on its own merits. The followup redemption arcs only takes some of the sting away (from tarnishing a hero), but doesn't make the HiC story better at all.

For example, if HiC used Lagoon Boy instead of Wally as the cause, and then over the next years had stories that redeemed Lagoon Boy, it doesn't make the HiC story land any better. Sure, there would be less outrage over making Lagoon Boy a villain so Lagoon-HiC would be less controversial, but the story still is a mess. Personally, I don't care that Harley beat Batman at something or that they 'ruined Wally', but when you combine a mess of a story with making characters people like look bad, you're asking for universal disgust.


A comparable storyline I think of is Identity Crisis.
1. Both IC and HiC have the inciting murder(s), that our heroes set out to solve.
2. They have their prime suspects (Harley and Booster in HiC, Doctor Light in IC) to track down while other characters work on investigating
3. The underlying element is a previously unknown history of our superheroes (Sanctuary/mental health in HiC, and mindwipes in IC)
4. The twists comes when it is revealed that the suspect is not a villain but a superhero (well, superhero's wife in IC, and Wally in HiC).
5. Both did the mistake based on mental health (insanity with Jean, and grief with Wally) and attempted to cover it up.

Where IC is successful, is that the Mindwipe storyline is just a red herring, and so does not need to hold up to close scrutiny within the confines of this specific story.

In contrast, HiC has the mental health be integral to the story (it is the cause of Wally's mistakes, and the threat of public exposure of Sanctuary is *important*), and yet barely develops it. As such, it doesn't hold up at all to the scrutiny it deserves as an integral plot element.

Putting aside the kneejerk 'character assassination' response (Wally, Zatanna mindwiping villains, Jean), Jean's actions seem reactionary while Wally's actions seem incoherent yet calculated. When you add on the fact that time-travel is an important part of the cover-up, everything that Wally did seems less understandable from a character perspective. His plan seems to be to frame innocent people, reflex to a murder-suicide, and expose the existence of Sanctuary to the public. Exposing Sanctuary to Lois doesn't seem to do anything to help with fixing the mistake or helping the cover-up. What you end up with is a twist that doesn't make the preceding issues read better.

Neither were fair murder mysteries though.

You point out HiC's flaws, but neglect a few things from ID Crisis.

Like how they never bothered to mention the phone call that Jean used to hurt/kill Sue, or how she discovered Tim Drake's ID

[TheRay]

I feel like most people agree with the what the majority of comic fans think about half the time and disagree with them the other half of the time. The most vocal portion of comic fans are always so hit or miss.

[Agent Z]

No one is asking for that? What the **** are you talking about?
https://www.quora.com/How-can-Flash-...ow-can-he-lose

A person asking how Flash can lose if he has super speed is not the same as not wanting him to lose.