Movie Spidermen fight it out

[Guy1]

[big_adventure]

We just went through this at length in another thread the other day.

It's not bullet timing.

Well, I got bored reading the vitriol and disregard for board rules in that thread (I was afk for a long while) and didn't see the conclusion. :-) I still think it's bullet timing, based on the volume, the fact that he's blind effectively while doing it, and the fact that he goes directly towards the shooters, but if the consensus is "no BT" or if a mod stepped in with a ruling, I'm not going to die on this hill. RETREAT!!!

If that's the case, it probably invalidated Garfeld's BT as well, since it's a one-time thing and it's not necessarily "clearly" BT.

[big_adventure]

Further Edit - I mean, most bullet-timers are pretty much doing the same when they're dodging attacks from behind, because they can't SEE the bullets. Exceptions are people who have proven supersenses for this kind of thing (Matt Murdock and his radar sense), people who do insane stuff like 'turn and look at the freaking bullets, oh look, bullets, then dodge' (Shang Chi), and people who have insane comic-booky-martial arts skills surpassing that of Batman who are actually SHOWN being trained to 'sense' bullets coming at them from behind and THEN dodge them (Cassandra Cain).

I agree with everything you wrote in that post - even the part I didn't quote - but this does apply to Holland's scene in FFH. He uses some sort of super sense explicitly to pick up on the bullets that he cannot see to avoid them. He can see neither the shooters, nor the shots, and succeeds in avoiding ALL of them, moving towards them in an extremely tight space. Again, not going to die on that hill, just wanted to connect the dots to that point.

[Sharpandpointies]

I agree with everything you wrote in that post - even the part I didn't quote - but this does apply to Holland's scene in FFH. He uses some sort of super sense explicitly to pick up on the bullets that he cannot see to avoid them. He can see neither the shooters, nor the shots, and succeeds in avoiding ALL of them, moving towards them in an extremely tight space. Again, not going to die on that hill, just wanted to connect the dots to that point.

This point really has nothing really to do with Peter's aim-dodging, where he's clearly using Spider-sense, absolutely. Was made it discussing 'why the scene with Bruce isn't bullet-timing' and is one reason of many.

But there is again no clear evidence that he's bullet-timing. None of the above above means it's bullet-timing.

Volume of fire has never been an indication of bullet-timing. Cripes, I've posted a scene in the other thread, from a comic, where Bruce is being fired upon by LITERALLY 40+ gunmen using M4 assault rifles, and he aim-dodges a truly massive volume of fire before finally deploying smoke.

Moving forward into the gunfire has never been an indication of bullet-timing (TONS of aim-dodgers do this).

Spider-sense allows...what? Barring an explanation, we're back to it warning him ahead of time of danger, which is the classic Spider-Sense. He knows where to go to avoid the danger that is incoming, and goes there. Spider-sense picks up gunmen aiming at him BEFORE they shoot. In the movies, one of the few times he has it happen is when Thanos' ship shows up. We can't exactly say 'he's sensing an immediate, incoming object' with that (or it would be happening every time something large drove/flew past him in the area, and it doesn't), it's a danger sense. Actual combat precog. So why is this not aim-dodging?

Also, it's not like the drones are actually 'filling the hallway with bullets'. They're firing at HIM. They're aiming at HIM. But...Spider-sense and sure, greater than human speed; if Peter suddenly shifts to the left by a meter, everything aimed at him that is fired an instant later is going to miss, be that one drone or fifty. And he's going to be moving toward areas that his spider-sense tells him are safe.

Not a killer point, but he's also not shown to be moving specific parts of his body to avoid specific shots. He's shown moving his whole body extremely erratically with agility to different areas and spinning in the air and such (and how spinning in the air would be a depiction of bullet-timing if he needs to make it through large volumes of fire aimed in his direction, I don't know).

And most importantly, as it always has been on Rumbles, there are none of the indicators we have always used to show bullet-timing.

1. His speed is a whole lot slower than bullets;
2. He's never shown explicitly reacting to the bullets and getting out of the way, which is something that's pretty much demanded;
3. He's not slapping them out of the air with thin objects or the like;
4. He doesn't actually HAVE any speedfeats of the sort we'd expect from a bullet-timer.

What supports him being an aim-dodger? Besides what he is missing in all of the above.

1. He's actually using a super-sense that tells him of danger before said danger happens. And, based on comics, where to go to avoid it.

Rumbles hasn't exactly given away that level of speed before now. It has always been noted that we require clear, explicit proof. Cripes, Post-Crisis Lady Shiva has speedfeats where she does multiple things while a dropped gun hangs in the air, she fights evenly with a Cassandra Cain who is explicitly shown to be using her ridiculous speed, she has other speedfeats (river o'knives), etc...but nope, she's not a bullet-timer. Which, cool, because that's how it has always played out, and it's not just Shiva who gets that level of examination. ^_^

Similarly here.

[Captain Morgan]

I'll also point out that in the end of that scene when Mysterio tries to sneak up and shoot him, the gun isn't fired until after Peter has shoved it away. That was a pretty perfect opportunity to show him bullet timing. Instead, they had him effectively aim dodge it.

[big_adventure]

I graciously yield my comrades.

[Captain Morgan]

I graciously yield my comrades.

You know, it doesn't happen on the internet very often, but I appreciate when someone is willing to concede a point. Good on ya bud.

In other news, I could have sworn Maggiure had a feat of back flipping over a bullet when someone shoots a revolver at his back that would have qualified. Can't find it now though, so I think I was conflating the goblin glider dodge with the Uncle Ben killer confrontation.

[big_adventure]

If that feat doesn't count for Holland, Maguire has the best speed in all liklihood - the "time freezes" scene was pretty solid.

[Captain Morgan]

If that feat doesn't count for Holland, Maguire has the best speed in all liklihood - the "time freezes" scene was pretty solid.

I'm not sure how to compare it to Garfield swinging through bullet time, but probably. Even if Garfield is competitive for speed, though, I think he's significantly weaker and less durable from my memory. Where as Holland is competitive for brawn but slower. So I think Maguire wins.

[big_adventure]

I'm not sure how to compare it to Garfield swinging through bullet time, but probably. Even if Garfield is competitive for speed, though, I think he's significantly weaker and less durable from my memory. Where as Holland is competitive for brawn but slower. So I think Maguire wins.

That jives with my take given the current analysis. Garfield might be faster - the fast time Electro scene was epic - but he doesn't really hit hard enough to do much to Maguire or Holland.

[Captain Morgan]

I know this thread is settled, but I came across a really good example of bullet timing vs aim dodging: One Punch Man chapter 82, Garou vs Death Gatling. Death uses, well, a Gatling gun and firings huge amounts of rounds at Garou, with enough quantity and force to mulch the trees around him. It remains aim dodging up until the point where Garou realizes that if he dodges a kid in the building behind him is going to get hit. At which point Garou plants his feet and deflects every bullet. That's the point that elevates the performance, but if the kid hadn't have been there Garou might not have ever bothered to demonstrate he could pull it off. Aim dodging would have been sufficient. Well, maybe he would have, he's a huge show boating jerk.