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  1. #256
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wally West View Post
    No that just permanently ruins the character

    Because now if heaven forbid a writer wants Tim to be with Stephanie or a girl character there will be an op/Ed article and a big outcry on forums (mostly from people who aren’t even fans of the character) badmouthing DC for taking away “their” gay character and not being “inclusive”
    As a bisexual character, he is by definition still capable of getting back together with Steph or another female love interest. You know there is a difference between gay and bi right?

    And it goes both ways (lol), I imagine that some of the people who are criticizing this (some, not all) and making an issue out of this aren't fans of the character to begin with either.

  2. #257
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    NO no. Youre right. My bad. I get different answers from different people but I shouldn't clump her in.
    No worries, I get why Americans tend to equate Latino and Hispanic. And she is Latina. But for us here in Brazil, being conflated with Hispanic countries is like, IDK, asking a black Jamaican how was it to be born in Africa. (this is just an explanation btw, not trying to be a dick out anything)
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

    To do spoiler tags, use [ spoil ] at the start of the sentence and [ /spoil ] at the end, without the spaces. You're welcome!

  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    As a bisexual character, he is by definition still capable of getting back together with Steph or another female love interest. You know there is a difference between gay and bi right?

    And it goes both ways (lol), I imagine that some of the people who are criticizing this (some, not all) and making an issue out of this aren't fans of the character to begin with either.
    Even if they aren't fans, a message is being sent that DC may do this to characters they ARE fans of. So I can understand alarm because of that.

    I mainly just wanted to say that, but in regards to the core topic. Eh...I kind of see both sides of it and I don't think there is a "right" answer. If fans of a character feel negatively toward a favorite of theirs suddenly being turned gay or bisexual, I think that's understandable. I don't believe that makes them bigots. They formed an emotional connection with something that was presented a certain way, and when it becomes notably different in a major way, I don't believe it's weird for them to have a negative reaction to that.

    When I was little, I liked seeing Screwball Squirrel when he wasn't wearing his Napoleon hat. When he had the hat on...I don't know, for some reason, it turned me away somewhat. People can be fickle like that and that's okay. They shouldn't need to justify their tastes and preferences. They just are what they are.

    However, I do understand that this isn't necessarily a betrayal of the character, because...you know...people can change, or realize different things about themselves, or decide to try different things. That happens in real life. So...*shrug*

    That said, I'm mostly for creating new characters or using existing ones because I don't like to pull the wool over people's eyes, because I know I generally don't like that being done to me. When people decided to become fans of Tim Drake, bisexuality wasn't a part of the deal. I'm not going to pretend like that's no big deal and it shouldn't make any difference to them.

  4. #259
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    All the people who object to Tim "changing", are you not aware of how most LGBT people start out living in "the closet" and have to come out?
    Most of who have had to come out have experienced what we're seeing here, where some people didn't accept us.
    People are still gay or bi even if they weren't out when you first meet them.

  5. #260
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo Goblin View Post
    Even if they aren't fans, a message is being sent that DC may do this to characters they ARE fans of. So I can understand alarm because of that.

    I mainly just wanted to say that, but in regards to the core topic. Eh...I kind of see both sides of it and I don't think there is a "right" answer. If fans of a character feel negatively toward a favorite of theirs suddenly being turned gay or bisexual, I think that's understandable. I don't believe that makes them bigots. They formed an emotional connection with something that was presented a certain way, and when it becomes notably different in a major way, I don't believe it's weird for them to have a negative reaction to that.

    When I was little, I liked seeing Screwball Squirrel when he wasn't wearing his Napoleon hat. When he had the hat on...I don't know, for some reason, it turned me away somewhat. People can be fickle like that and that's okay. They shouldn't need to justify their tastes and preferences. They just are what they are.

    However, I do understand that this isn't necessarily a betrayal of the character, because...you know...people can change, or realize different things about themselves, or decide to try different things. That happens in real life. So...*shrug*

    That said, I'm mostly for creating new characters or using existing ones because I don't like to pull the wool over people's eyes, because I know I generally don't like that being done to me. When people decided to become fans of Tim Drake, bisexuality wasn't a part of the deal. I'm not going to pretend like that's no big deal and it shouldn't make any difference to them.
    I just don't really get what "bisexuality wasn't part of the deal" needs to even be a factor for. Is it an automatic turn off for some people? It's not anything that fundamentally changes Tim as a character, so I can't really wrap my head around why this would be a bothersome change. Are people worried he will adopt some stereotypical "gay man" traits?

    The only thing I can really understand is if people are invested in the Tim/Steph ship or another of his female love interests, but this is still functionally no different than him getting yet another female love interest that could potentially bar any of those from happening again. It's the same difference either way, and none of those relationships are undermined because his sexual attraction to them is still canonically present. So nothing is changed.

    But I agree that not all statements challenging this necessarily come from a place of bigotry; like the execution of it and what happens going forward can be criticized and of course people who prefer Tim be straight can still be fans of Apollo, Midnighter, Batwoman, Renee, etc. But statements suggesting there should be a cap on representation are way more suspect and deserve to be called out IMO. And while I agree in an ideal world they'd create a whole slew of new diverse characters, we all know new characters have a very difficult time taking off in today's market and are met with the complaint of "forced diversity." if we limit it to just the characters we have now, it's still not very much.

  6. #261
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    After Iceman coming out of the closet, I thought it was only a matter of time before a more prominent DC character would follow suit. I understand both sides that are passionate about it. It's going to make for some great future DCEU movie or animated film. Might as well write it into the comics before making it happen onscreen.

  7. #262

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wally West View Post
    No that just permanently ruins the character

    Because now if heaven forbid a writer wants Tim to be with Stephanie or a girl character there will be an op/Ed article and a big outcry on forums (mostly from people who aren’t even fans of the character) badmouthing DC for taking away “their” gay character and not being “inclusive”
    Somebody will write an OP/ED on a story about two rabbits eating carrots in a field. That's just the internet and it's not limited to just shipping.

    Tim being bi sexual doesn't mean he can never have a straight relationship again. Loki, WW and Constantine are bi, yet they are primarily featured in straight romances. Yes, the fact that they are rarely featured in same sex relationships does bother some readers but there is no huge outcry over it.

    Based on your username you're a Wally West fan, did you think Piper being revealed as gay in the 80's invalidated any prior romances he could have had?

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZuLuLu View Post
    I keep seeing people saying this but they have yet to provide an example of where this has happened.

    Tim is likely going to be bi so that doesn't prevent him from being with a girl in the future.

    While they are not as popular as Tim Drake, Constantine and Daken are bi and are also known among LGBT fans.

    DC is hinting that Constantine and Zatanna (a woman) will again be romantically involved, there has been no out cry.

    Daken's current love interest is a woman Aurora and there has been no outcry.

    The complaints I used to see in the past was that both DC and Marvel use to refuse to actually have them in any same-sex relationships in the comics or when it was done it was handled poorly.
    I'm not sure if Constantine and Daken are really that characters that are really popular with the main audience for gay romance stories (which is afaik straight woman).

  9. #264
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I'm not sure if Constantine and Daken are really that characters that are really popular with the main audience for gay romance stories (which is afaik straight woman).
    Constantine definitely is.

  10. #265
    Astonishing Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I'm not sure if Constantine and Daken are really that characters that are really popular with the main audience for gay romance stories (which is afaik straight woman).
    Daken is younger, darker, sexier version of Wolverine who sleeps with men. Of course he's popular with straight women.

  11. #266
    Incredible Member Magnito's Avatar
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    I saw the title and thought "I should read this thread. Comments are just going to make me angry". And then a dive straight into the rabbit hole.

    Regardless, I'm for the change and support further development.

  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colossus1980 View Post
    After Iceman coming out of the closet, I thought it was only a matter of time before a more prominent DC character would follow suit. I understand both sides that are passionate about it. It's going to make for some great future DCEU movie or animated film. Might as well write it into the comics before making it happen onscreen.
    Wonder Woman so far is the most prominent.

  13. #268
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    Honestly, I never, ever saw the “queer coding” in Tim Drake.

    That being said, going on a date with someone of the same gender doesn’t automatically mean they’re one thing or the other. It just means that said individual is exploring themselves. Let’s be honest, a lot of teenagers and young people every where in the world experiment with their sexuality more than they admit. Note, I’m not saying that EVERYONE does this just that it does happen and it’s not something unusual. Tim Drake going on a date with Bernard is not an issue at all, it’s just one of those things that does happen.

    However, I do have a problem with this thinking that altering stuff like sexuality or race or gender makes a character “more interesting”, it doesn’t and frankly I think that thinking is problematic too. Iceman is gay today but has that made him more interesting or prominent? Not really. What story can you tell with a gay Iceman couldn’t you tell when he was straight? If DC (or any other comic company) and/or their creatives can’t find ways to promote their characters without changing their sexuality for increased press coverage, then they have a real problem. The way Iceman was “outed” was so ham-fisted that even some gay people (on IGN) took real issue with it. That seemed more like Bendis trying to make a statement or something, so much so that he completely missed the point. Alan Scott coming out was better handled but I personally have a problem with ANYONE that hides their sexuality from their partner for decades. Yes, homosexuality or bisexuality was illegal then but that doesn’t mean you string someone that loves you along for years on end knowing that your hiding a big part of yourself. I can’t get with that at all. The Earth-2 Alan Scott was pretty much accepted by everyone because he was gay from inception.

    There’s a discussion going on in the film community about how studios simply race or gender bend properties existing properties to generate buzz for their projects. It’s a real issue because a lot of it comes as vapid and unnecessary (the last Terminator movie is a classic example because it really was just a race bent terminator 2). This all plays into the “commodification of minorities” where there isn’t any real story to be told with the characters beyond simply generating publicity for the project. In the black community, it’s been a real discussion because certain types of representation actively hurts the fight for representation and ultimately achieves nothing.

    Now with Tim Drake, I hope this isn’t the case. Tim Drake has been a long standing fan favorite but DC has done a horrible job at balancing out their characters presentation and have ended up abandoning a lot of characters. Tim in particular was pushed aside for Damian Wayne (a pretty one note character IMO) and seems to have floundered ever since. All this being said, a lot of folks here must be quite young because 1) Tim Drake was a fairly prominent character back in the day with a successful solo book for a long period of time 2) Tim is NOT a self insert character and has been through a fair amount of horrifying trauma and set backs (I don’t know if this is still the case though because of DCs endless reboots and retcons.

  14. #269
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Somebody will write an OP/ED on a story about two rabbits eating carrots in a field. That's just the internet and it's not limited to just shipping.

    Tim being bi sexual doesn't mean he can never have a straight relationship again. Loki, WW and Constantine are bi, yet they are primarily featured in straight romances. Yes, the fact that they are rarely featured in same sex relationships does bother some readers but there is no huge outcry over it.

    Based on your username you're a Wally West fan, did you think Piper being revealed as gay in the 80's invalidated any prior romances he could have had?
    there is no outcry at all, only some who are fixated with sexuality of these characters, as if their sexual orientation is the most important issue, not their powers, heroics, adventures etc, turning comics into soap operas. This will not help comics, I fear it will just damage them more.
    As if the Marriage ban and Heroes can't be happy, mattered to most readers. People want superhero adventures not with whom they share their bed with.

  15. #270
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Honestly, I never, ever saw the “queer coding” in Tim Drake.

    That being said, going on a date with someone of the same gender doesn’t automatically mean they’re one thing or the other. It just means that said individual is exploring themselves. Let’s be honest, a lot of teenagers and young people every where in the world experiment with their sexuality more than they admit. Note, I’m not saying that EVERYONE does this just that it does happen and it’s not something unusual. Tim Drake going on a date with Bernard is not an issue at all, it’s just one of those things that does happen.

    However, I do have a problem with this thinking that altering stuff like sexuality or race or gender makes a character “more interesting”, it doesn’t and frankly I think that thinking is problematic too. Iceman is gay today but has that made him more interesting or prominent? Not really. What story can you tell with a gay Iceman couldn’t you tell when he was straight? If DC (or any other comic company) and/or their creatives can’t find ways to promote their characters without changing their sexuality for increased press coverage, then they have a real problem. The way Iceman was “outed” was so ham-fisted that even some gay people (on IGN) took real issue with it. That seemed more like Bendis trying to make a statement or something, so much so that he completely missed the point. Alan Scott coming out was better handled but I personally have a problem with ANYONE that hides their sexuality from their partner for decades. Yes, homosexuality or bisexuality was illegal then but that doesn’t mean you string someone that loves you along for years on end knowing that your hiding a big part of yourself. I can’t get with that at all. The Earth-2 Alan Scott was pretty much accepted by everyone because he was gay from inception.

    There’s a discussion going on in the film community about how studios simply race or gender bend properties existing properties to generate buzz for their projects. It’s a real issue because a lot of it comes as vapid and unnecessary (the last Terminator movie is a classic example because it really was just a race bent terminator 2). This all plays into the “commodification of minorities” where there isn’t any real story to be told with the characters beyond simply generating publicity for the project. In the black community, it’s been a real discussion because certain types of representation actively hurts the fight for representation and ultimately achieves nothing.

    Now with Tim Drake, I hope this isn’t the case. Tim Drake has been a long standing fan favorite but DC has done a horrible job at balancing out their characters presentation and have ended up abandoning a lot of characters. Tim in particular was pushed aside for Damian Wayne (a pretty one note character IMO) and seems to have floundered ever since. All this being said, a lot of folks here must be quite young because 1) Tim Drake was a fairly prominent character back in the day with a successful solo book for a long period of time 2) Tim is NOT a self insert character and has been through a fair amount of horrifying trauma and set backs (I don’t know if this is still the case though because of DCs endless reboots and retcons.
    Can a character only be gay if that means there are stories to be told that could only be told if they're gay? That's putting up hurdles that make it harder for gay characters to be used. Sometimes people with minority status still can be in stories that could happen to anyone.

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