Tim Drake bisexual

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Realistic number would be 0,155 actually.

Well, unfortunately for you, people don't come in decimals. So you're gonna have to deal with a whole Robin being LGBTQ.

[Ying Ko]

24.6378% of all comic characters. Since you're insistent on an actual number.

It's "enough" when people stop complaining every time it happens.

So 1 of 4 characters should be gay in your opinion. Noted. Anyone else? I feel the number presented is kinda low considering how much stink is being made of there being not enough presentation.

[Noodle]

So 1 of 4 characters should be gay in your opinion. Noted. Anyone else? I feel the number presented is kinda low considering how much stink is being made of there being not enough presentation.

While you're pulling numbers, can you get me the percentage of Kryptonians, Martians or other aliens in the real world? I mean, since DC Universe numbers have to be an exact match to the real world, I guess we need to get rid of those in the DC Universe.

Or do the percentages only matter when it comes to sexuality?

[Robanker]

Apologies if this was already answered, I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread yet. That said:

To those who have serious problems with these sort of reveals, I don't think any hypothetical "lead up" would make them happy. Look at Iceman (whose reveal, imho, made more sense than Tim's does); people have pulled up X-Men quotes/panels/pages dating back to the 1960's that can easily be interpreted as closeted commentary i.e. "lead up", and most readers don't except it because it wasn't the intention of the writer at the time or because he dated Opal Tanaka for five minutes.

People have an issue with established characters coming out, but then they also have a problem with new LGBT characters being created, and label them "tokens" or "SJW this", "woke that", etc. There's really no winning.

Yeah. I can understand specific characters on a case-by-case basis but unless someone provides context and reasoning beyond "bruh they're so straight though" it really does feel like thinly veiled "I just don't want to read LGBTQ characters."

Look, I generally don't like changing old characters when there are others that are languishing in obscurity that could use the bump, but I do see upsides. Alan Scott's reveal worked surprisingly well and he's no less my favorite Green Lantern as a result. Tim's breakup was sloppy, but of all the Robins he's the one I've thought may not be straight. Some characters are so forgone in their conclusions (Superman and Lois, for example) that a reveal on either of them would be kind of pointless. Tim and Steph are nowhere near Lois/Clark, Ollie/Dinah or anything.

And I really liked those two together.

But the kind of complaints I've seen about Tim (and believe me, there are some characters I think DC needs to stop dragging their knuckles on and out, and some I would disagree with changing entirely) have ranged from neutral-positive to "I can't admit I'd never accept this or they'll think I'm a bigot." What actually IS proper build-up in a reasonable manner?

I've seen "ten adventures." We get two a year. You mean to tell me you demand one plotline continue through five years of storytelling across one book anyone not Superman or Batman gets to be adequate buildup? They can't even keep plots going for more than three years with the same writers. I'm not saying this sort of reveal works for everyone. You have some examples that work swimmingly (Obsidian, Rene), some where it's basically a rug pulled out from under that work anyway (Alan), some that do rush to the new status quo a bit clumsily (Tim) and one's I'd argue are awful (I'm breaking with you here, old friend. Having a straight woman drag Bobby out of the closet when he clearly wasn't really processing that information about himself yet felt selfish on her part, but I'm admittedly straight so take my insight with a shaker of salt).

In a perfect world, they wouldn't need to change old characters because the market wouldn't be so goddamn toxic to new characters or less prominent ones getting a book over others (GLs and Flashes really go to war over the latter). This is the bed we've made after 80 years of not buying anything but the general options and now these companies want to expand their reach other than the same demographic that shrinks all the time and generally is always dissatisfied with the product during every fan engagement.

I get it. I don't like seeing my darlings change at all. Even a costume change from something I loved (Dinah's Rebirth look for example) can bug me a while. I genuinely get it, but this forum really makes me shake my head sometimes.

[nightrider]

C'mon. Mate, you're pulling my chain.
As mentioned earlier, we've had 30 years with the character Tim Drake. For me? Throwing this out there is just a way to stir up interest in the current book.
For it to work, it'd want to be really well handled and written. As I've said the Alan Scott retcon didn't work for me at all and I don't think it's been particularly well handled.

And I'm not saying we can't have more characters. FFS, there should be SO much more diversity in comic books.
What I AM saying, is why not use the under utilised characters you have or simply create a new character?? Lord knows if it's done well readers will embrace them.
Bunker was the saving grace in the last Teen Titans relaunch and he's a fan favourite.
Marc Andreyko's take on Todd Rice was sublime.
Write a great story that just happens to involve a LGBTQ character. Don't just throw out an established characters' sexuality to stir the pot. I find it tacky.

But what u may not realize is that sexuality isn’t binary. Not everyone identify as a certain sexual orientation the minute they’re born. Some people take years to figure out who they are or what they like. Besides I don’t think this changes anything. If a good friend of yours come out to you as gay, does that take away anything for you? If your child comes out to you after 25 years, would u throw away the relationship with him?

[M L A]

See, I'm trying not to take offense at that comment.
That ain't where I'm coming from.
I'm complaining as it simply strikes me as shock factor, not character progression.
Same with the Alan Scott retcon.
There are a number of awesome queer characters in the DCU already. If you wanna be serious, let's drag them out of mothballs and put some shine on them.
Mikaal Tomas, Tasmanian Devil, Grace Choi, Thunder, Obsidian, Ice Maiden, Pied Piper - all worth a dusting off and a higher profile.
Not shoehorning a member of the Bat family for expediency.

Mikaal, Tasmanian Devil, Obsidian, and Piper were all originally straight and then turned gay, unlike Tim is presumably going to be bi.

Mikaal had sex with women before Robinson had himself call him gay (instead of bisexual).

Tasmanian Devil was infatuated with Yolanda Wildcat before he was made gay.

Obsidian was a social mess but was straight and was implied to have slept with Marcie before she was revealed to have been a mole before Jones hinted he was gay in 1995.

Piper was implied to have used his hypnosis on a girl to be his girlfriend before Messner-Loebs basically changed his whole character after COIE.

And then speaking of Obsidian let's be real, most of the people taking offense at Tim finally being bi after years of (unintentional to intentional) gay coding would have 100% agreed with Alex Ross back in 2006 when Ross threw a fit so big Roy Thomas himself had to calm him down after Andreyko gave him a boyfriend:

>ROSS: I have no idea. I don’t know that that would be the case. Obsidian being put into the JSA is a lot like—and I’m speaking for Geoff here, which he may not agree with—but it’s him grabbing a character that’s just going to get molested further in other writer’s hands. So he’s grabbing him and putting him in the group so he at least can be shepherding this character that belongs in this association. Maybe he’ll make sure that no other writers get any “fun, creative” ideas with him.

http://www.comicsbeat.com/alex-ross-on-gay-characters/

So let's not be dishonest about who is "acceptable" to be gay/bi and who isn't. And this may not be directed at you specifically, but rather everybody who tries to use other gay/bi characters to say "well why do we need MORE of them!), because most gay/bi characters aren't new, especially gay/bi male ones, as comic readers do not care about new characters unless they are legacy characters.

[Robanker]

See I don't care about any of that and it doesn't really have anything to do with me. But I love funnybooks and I do care when this is being done to Iceman, Hercules (Gee I wonder should I start hanging out outside gay clubs to sell my old Champions issues which featured both, although they were both supposedly straight at the time), Alan Scott and Tim Drake to name a few.

Still no answer. And "faulty premise" isn't an answer at all.

So it's fine when they do it to women in your mind, but not men. I like funnybooks too, but you already painted yourself into a pretty shitty corner here. Moreover, there's actual mythological precedent for Heracles to take interest in male companions which means every offshoot of him (including Marvel's Hercules) can be influenced by that. But hey, why start making sense now.

[Midnight_v]

So 1 of 4 characters should be gay in your opinion. Noted. Anyone else? I feel the number presented is kinda low considering how much stink is being made of there being not enough presentation.

You're just outnumbered on these forums. Nothing you've said is "wrong" you're not asking questions that haven't been asked before. Frankly, your not remotely even alone in your views, but you're seriously debating people who ARE NOT joking when they say they think 25% of all characters should be non hetero-normative. Let that sink in.
You're not wrong you're just in the wrong place for what it's worth. I'm black and I abhor the race swapping technique in general and this is along those same lines. The last thing I wanted ever was a black batman. No, I wanted a fixed cyborg,
a badass Mr. Terrific which makes sense for properties like Terry Sloan which we're from an age past.

But even taking into account what the moderator said about world wide hatred...
It just sucks in a narrative sense and for me?

For me it's it's thought bubbles. You've known this characters thoughts and dreams and beliefs, and desire is never something far from people's thoughts if it's legitimate.
Hard to belive he's 32 years old but yeah it would have come up if we can just be honest. Idk.
Secondly, I didn't realize gay Robin was a popular thing in that community till this thread and would have never because well most of the time Robin's start off as children. I tend to think of him as a kid hero... or teen hero. Ymmv.

[M L A]

So let's not be dishonest about who is "acceptable" to be gay/bi and who isn't. And this may not be directed at you specifically, but rather everybody who tries to use other gay/bi characters to say "well why do we need MORE of them!), because most gay/bi characters aren't new, especially gay/bi male ones, as comic readers do not care about new characters unless they are legacy characters.

My other post was getting rather long but case in point, this argument is positively antediluvian.

A gay fan back in 1988 said Obsidian was gay as hell but was basically told "you have Maggie and this-stereotypical-gay-man-who-gets-AIDS-and-will-be-an-embarrassment-until-an-actual-lgbt-writer-saves-him-30-years-from-now, isn't that ENOUGH for you?"

1988 obsidian gay.jpg

(bottom right)

1988 obsidian gay 2.jpg

(finishing in top left)

[Ying Ko]

You're just outnumbered on these forums. Nothing you've said is "wrong" you're not asking questions that haven't been asked before. Frankly, your not remotely even alone in your views, but you're seriously debating people who ARE NOT joking when they say they think 25% of all characters should be non hetero-normative. Let that sink in.
You're not wrong you're just in the wrong place for what it's worth. I'm black and I abhor the race swapping technique in general and this is along those same lines. The last thing I wanted ever was a black batman. No, I wanted a fixed cyborg,
a badass Mr. Terrific which makes sense for properties like Terry Sloan which we're from an age past.

But even taking into account what the moderator said about world wide hatred...
It just sucks in a narrative sense and for me?

For me it's it's thought bubbles. You've known this characters thoughts and dreams and beliefs, and desire is never something far from people's thoughts if it's legitimate.
Hard to belive he's 32 years old but yeah it would have come up if we can just be honest. Idk.
Secondly, I didn't realize gay Robin was a popular thing in that community till this thread and would have never because well most of the time Robin's start off as children. I tend to think of him as a kid hero... or teen hero. Ymmv.

Thank you for the first reasonable response on here. This forum has really gone to the gutter hasn't it? Whatever...

[Jabare]

Was there this much complaining when Ivy, Harley, Harper, Kate, Holly and Renee Montoya all came out as gay or bi?
It's been pretty strange that most of the women in the Bat comics are gay or bi while until very recently there's been no prominent non heterosexual men.
There really is no pleasing people. If a new gay character was introduced people would say there was already too many Bat characters. There's always a reason why this isn't the right character to be LGBT, this isn't the right time.

Holly, Renee, and Harper are more minor characters in comparison to the others. Kate Kane was out not long after her introduction in 2006. And I believe she's a different incarnation from the original Kathy Kane.

For Harley and Ivy fans either don't know or don't care.

I also get that you're inferring that the male characters have received more outrage than the female characters.

Can I love someone based off a post? Because, if so, I'm in love with you Jabare!

As an addendum to your brilliant post - bierasure is very real and I hope that, if bisexual is the route they decide for Tim, that writers and DC are wary not to fall into this trap. Sexuality and love are so much more complex than the tiny little boxes and binaries people rely on to simplify everything.

aw shucks.

well said.

Another thing that people need to take note of is that being bisexual doesn't mean a 50/50 attraction to men and women, it is a spectrum so someone like Tim can have a stronger attraction to the opposite sex, and therefore it may take them a while to figure out that that the may not be straight.

Yes.

I have to say I am glad that these discussions are more forefront today. In the 90s, I couldn't imagine having these open dialogues.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

You're just outnumbered on these forums. Nothing you've said is "wrong" you're not asking questions that haven't been asked before. Frankly, your not remotely even alone in your views, but you're seriously debating people who ARE NOT joking when they say they think 25% of all characters should be non hetero-normative. Let that sink in.

Well, let's break that down.

First off, that would mean that 75% of characters would still be straight, so I'd say that's more than enough for you to not have to "deal" with "non-heteronormative" characters.

Secondly, the list of major (or at least notable) comic book characters is rather small. It's not like there are 320 million classic comic book characters like there are 320 million people in the United States. No, the list of notable comic book characters is like, MAYBE 100-200 or so, at most. And that's kind of being generous.

So of course, when you establish that just a few from that list are LGBTQ, then that obviously accounts for a larger proportion than JUST around 3.1%. If only 10-20 characters were established as LGBTQ, that'd account for around 10% of notable characters. But again, that doesn't mean that LGBTQ characters are overrepresented. It just means that the list of notable comic characters is much, much, much smaller than the general U.S. population. Because...well, does that really need to be explained?

So, are you honestly telling me that the list of LGBTQ characters in comics should be limited to just one or two because that's "proportional"? Are you serious? Imagine if you said that about any other minority group. Imagine if you said that about women or black characters or Asian characters. That's ridiculous.

What's saddening is that you actually made a good point about how a lot of minority characters are underutilized. I WOULD like to see Cyborg or Black Lightning become major players or see Tasmanian Devil or even Extraño become fixtures in the DC Universe. However, whatever validity you had with that point gets drowned out by the fact that the rest of what you said just comes across as if you're advocating for less representation.

Thank you for the first reasonable response on here. This forum has really gone to the gutter hasn't it? Whatever...

What does "gone to the gutter" mean to you? If that means that this forum is at least tolerant and welcoming of underrepresented minorities, well then, I don't know what to tell you.

[Midnight_v]

Thank you for the first reasonable response on here. This forum has really gone to the gutter hasn't it? Whatever...

Whoa. Whoa.
That's a little far... while it's a little echo-chambery at times but there's still interesting people with cool ideas and insights. There's just a prevailing attitude round here, about this type of topics, but it's not an absolute monolith either.

I'm here and a lot of other reasonable people.

But mostly for me there's this:
Some people are going to like this you don't.
Some people will have all the same data as you, and come to a different conclusion.
That doest make them lesser or wrong, or even your enemy.
It's not a war until someone goes down the path of saying someone's opinion is wrong. Which they really can be.

What gets me is if one of the bat family has a strong aversion to it I'm story. That would be hella interesting if dick was SUPER against Tim because of this and how Bruce deals with it.

But the problem is the stories no longer get very indepth and that's the problem with all of this. Imho

[ironman2978]

Thank you for the first reasonable response on here. This forum has really gone to the gutter hasn't it? Whatever...

I don’t think anything has really “gone to the gutter”. This forum is the same as it’s been for years (speaking as someone who has been on this forum since I was 10). Each comment that has explained why the reveal makes sense has been for the more part rational and well explained. It’s just like it feels like you already made your mind about the subject but you didn’t like that people called you out on how you handled the conversation.

I agree, in the real world, sometimes people you assume were straight or gay, can be bi or still figuring out their sexuality, there is no one size fits all. And it’s completely fair for them to ask for proper representation without the need to get questioned, “how much is enough?” Because honestly it sounds like “why should you matter more than me?”

Shimbo honestly said it best here:

It’s telling that you expect BIPOC or LGBTQ to find or relate to straight white characters, but get mad when there are more attempts of diversity (if it’s successful or done with care, is always an argument within itself). It’s honestly a no win scenario sometimes. If there is a newly created character, they are often lauded as diversity attempts, never promoted and ignored for bigger named heroes, whereas if the author only changes a minor detail, but they are still the same character outside of race change or change on sexuality, it becomes a huge deal or a problem.

I would love to have a Cyborg or John Stewart or Statix or Black Lightning or Katana who’s represented properly without being shoved to the wayside for the next hottest thing or another Batman story. But at the same time, I am not going to bad when the author wants to explore a story on what if Bruce is an Asian American or if Tim or Iceman wants to explore their sexuality and not just dare girls and remain stagnant. Like it’s been said, it is still the same Tim, nothing has been changed and honestly lgbt aren’t different from straight people at all, they love who they chose to love. It’s not a big deal, imo. This and Alan Scott’s coming out have been handled with more care than say Jean just telling Iceman, “you’re gay.”

Comics have always been ever changing and delved into these topics and done stuff like this. The only thing that’s really changes is it’s being a character that you know about.

[Midnight_v]

Well, let's break that down.

That was a lot and I... think at this point I don't really care how it comes off because pretty much any dissension is gonna be considered phobic to someone. I know who I am and if what I'm not and if I was I'd be frank about it.
One thing I've learned here is that don't care about representation nor diversity as end goals. They're just not why I read comics. But It's feature not a bug tho when it does appear.
Funny thing that I'll point out is that from all you're talk about how bad it would be if other races were presented proportionally... they kinda are from a US perspective. I'm black and African Americans are about 10% of the population and there's generally speaking 1 or 2 of us per five man band.
It's Hispanics that are vastly underrepresented, ridiculously so and maybe for the people that care about that sort of thing they should be hoping up and down for them. Idk what the answer is because I don't see that. And I can only think its what? Stacking?
What I so know is it's about heroism and conflict and narrative sense not these grandstanding events.
To me at least. But people can die on whatever hill they want. It's all just opinions.