Batgirls

[Frontier]

Setting aside the fact that I think Factor is a million percent right about the Tim Robin book, I think Batgirls is a case of fans who had sky high expectations and who've been kind of low key and sometimes high key fighting ever since the n52 started (and in the case of Cass and Steph fans, since 2009 when Steph became Batgirl and Cass quit). There was no one real audience for the book, but instead fragmented pieces of audiences and potential audiences.

Add to that while I don't think the execution was necessarily bad on the Cloonan/Conrad book, it definitely wasn't blow me out of my seat good either, and it was also nowhere close to ANY of the really popular Batgirl runs of the past that have fans wanting a nostalgic do-over hopeful. It's too melancholy and not tightly enough constructed for the BQM Steph fans, it's nowhere near dark and tragic enough for Puckett Cass fans, it's not as cheerful and cute as Burnside fans want, and it's not as PTSD-laden and gory as Simone fans want. It's an indie style book that revels in being quirky and off beat, but the Batgirl audience mostly wants a mainstream style like Nightwing usually gets.

Also, for anyone questioning whether quality is in any way connected to sales, look no further than Tini Howard's Catwoman run for confirmation that it is, in fact, not at all connected to sales. That book is buoyed by sexy variant cover schemes while the writing is beyond awful and the interior art is consistently incompetent.

Anyway. I still think that those who are crowing about the book's cancellation are wrong. As I've said, this book lasted longer than 9 other books launched in this timeframe. It's not a rousing success, but it's not a failure.

I think Babs fans want stuff more in-line with Mairghead Scott's work than Simone's because I feel like she had a better tonal/character balance than Simone did.

Of course you also have the hardcore Burnside fans who also feel that should be what she primarily is depicted as or doing.

DC is desperate to find a new mold with Tim after everything they tried had been met with crickets. The tried to make him the next Nightwing with the New 52 TT, as readers expected his character to be able to do what Dick did. They then they tried making him a future Batman, as readers expected him to be the next Bruce. They then even put him back in the Robin suit and brought him and his friends back to their traditional form as readers claim they wanted. And all of it was met with apathy or deemed by his ‘fans’ not good enough. As if Tim’s character’s value and outside interest is deserving of meeting every whim or demand. Even now, what they are currently doing isn’t completely without fan inspiration.

As someone who wasn’t expecting to like the book, and thought was a bad idea at the start, the Batgirl book was solid. It’s style and tone served to remain open to the general market they are looking for with the brand, while the concept and story reflected what the characters fan bases said they wanted.
I get it might be easier to swallow the idea that the book didn’t last longer because it just wasn’t good enough, rather then acknowledge that these characters appeal might just not be that strong. But the reality is characters more often then not don’t get ideal or perfect books. A characters worth is measured by their ability to draw even with out ideal circumstances. That’s what it is to have general appeal.

DC never really gave Tim fans what they want even when they acted like they were and I think miller hit it on the head as to why this book never quite hit the sweet spot of what all the fans of the Batgirls were hoping for/expecting.

[millernumber1]

As someone who wasn’t expecting to like the book, and thought was a bad idea at the start, the Batgirl book was solid. It’s style and tone served to remain open to the general market they are looking for with the brand, while the concept and story reflected what the characters fan bases said they wanted.
I get it might be easier to swallow the idea that the book didn’t last longer because it just wasn’t good enough, rather then acknowledge that these characters appeal might just not be that strong. But the reality is characters more often then not don’t get ideal or perfect books. A characters worth is measured by their ability to draw even with out ideal circumstances. That’s what it is to have general appeal.

It does pain me to admit it, but I think DC hasn't done a good job of building up new fans around Cass and Steph, and they HAVE done a good job of shedding a lot of their older fans. I don't think that it's necessarily the case that the characters are not appealing, but I do think there's a lot of entrenched mindsets that are working against them.

Rebirth Batgirls sales weren’t that great though. But the Batgirl book became an entry book for female creators that they were able to supplement with events. They’d have to really up the investment to get Batgirl to be a real consistent seller again in the current comic market. It’s not guaranteed anymore. This is bigger then just a quality issue.

The fact that nearly every creator on the Batgirl book has been excluded from being a tie-in to major events with other books is a huge problem, I think, leading to a feeling that it's not an "essential" book. Much as I dislike the current Catwoman run, Howard has coordinated well with Zdarsky and the Batgirls team, leading to her book feeling very central to what's happening in Gotham.

That is true, but this is mostly about expectations. People expect Batgirl and Robin books to do okay numbers and have longer runs.

Yeah, Damian is good example here. All his books got cancelled due to outside factors.

Batgirls got cancelled due to outside factors (Knight Terrors). I'm firmly of the opinion that if a book is doing truly stellar numbers, DC will let it push through events rather than using outside factors to justify cancellation.

I think Babs fans want stuff more in-line with Mairghead Scott's work than Simone's because I feel like she had a better tonal/character balance than Simone did.

Of course you also have the hardcore Burnside fans who also feel that should be what she primarily is depicted as or doing.

I think the really hardcore fans liked Scott's story a lot, but I think the majority of fans had already kinda dropped the book because of how weak Larson's run preceding it was. Simone's run remains beloved because it was such a huge entry point to so many fans, and is still promoted heavily as such.

I still think that launching Batgirls so late in 2021 was a huge tactical mistake. But I can see the logic behind it - getting momentum off of an event to launch a new series. I just think that when you're trying to draft behind Tynion who is leaving the Bat-books wasn't ever going to work. Even though it wasn't necessarily predictable that Tynion would be leaving when they hired Cloonan and Conrad.

[Konja7]

Rebirth Batgirl sold for a long time almost as much as Nightwing, at times more, and always more than Red Hood. While Nightwing got new creative teams to pull him out of the hole, and Red Hood got chances on Urban Legends and Task Force Z, Barbara became a supporting actor.

To be fair, many Jason fans weren't happy with the development for the character after his solo was cancelled.

That said, DC's answer the poor sales of Batgirl was the Batgirls comic. They mainly care about Batgirl as a brand (not Barbara as character).

[MajorHoy]

. . . The fact that nearly every creator on the Batgirl book has been excluded from being a tie-in to major events with other books is a huge problem, I think, leading to a feeling that it's not an "essential" book. Much as I dislike the current Catwoman run, Howard has coordinated well with Zdarsky and the Batgirls team, leading to her book feeling very central to what's happening in Gotham.

I don't know . . . sometimes, not having a title being dragged in to / disrupted by a "major event" can be a good thing if you don't have much interest in the event.

. . . I think the really hardcore fans liked Scott's story a lot, but I think the majority of fans had already kinda dropped the book because of how weak Larson's run preceding it was. Simone's run remains beloved because it was such a huge entry point to so many fans, and is still promoted heavily as such.

I didn't mind Larson's run that much, but I will admit it wasn't all that strong. Mairghread Scot's run was okay, but I dropped the Rebirth run when Cecil Castellucci took over, and the tie-in to "Year of the Villain" definitley was not an incentive for me.

[millernumber1]

I don't know . . . sometimes, not having a title being dragged in to / disrupted by a "major event" can be a good thing if you don't have much interest in the event.

I didn't mind Larson's run that much, but I will admit it wasn't all that strong. Mairghread Scot's run was okay, but I dropped the Rebirth run when Cecil Castellucci took over, and the tie-in to "Year of the Villain" definitley was not an incentive for me.

I do wonder about this. Tie-ins to events can be really frustrating (I'm still really annoyed at how Hawkman was derailed for a full arc by Year of the Villain/infected storylines, even though Venditti handled it brilliantly), but they can also help a series get more eyeballs and thus sales if done well. Longterm fans tend to voice a dislike of events, but they still do events because they sell, which indicates to me that they can also help boost a tie-in series.

That being said, Castellucci's attempts to tie-in Year of the Villain were dreadful, as was her work on Joker War tie ins, but I'm not convinced it was because they were tie-ins.

[Waldo]

I think they should choose one batgirl and try to made something different while Barbara is in Nightwing with the Oracle codename.
If it were the perfect world, we could have a Robin&Spoiler comic and a Black Cat mini while Barbara is helping Dick as Oracle

[Frontier]

I just remember I think both Scott and Castelluci not being invited to the Batfamily writers retreat/meeting or being informed about stuff that was coming up that would effect their books.

[millernumber1]

I just remember I think both Scott and Castelluci not being invited to the Batfamily writers retreat/meeting or being informed about stuff that was coming up that would effect their books.

I don't know if Castellucci wasn't invited - she did participate in both Year of the Villain and Joker War. It was Bryan Q. Miller who said he wasn't invited to Bat-summits when Scott talked about it on twitter.

[OBrianTallent]

I do seem to recall Castelucci not being invited to the retreats as well (it seemed to be a recurring theme with Batgirl writers, left out of the overall meetings.)

Also, Simone had intended to do a lighter toned series but was told to darken down from what I remember. She wasn't a fan herself of the style she was asked to do, but wasn't going to let someone else bring Babs out of the chair, she took true ownership of the character for as much as she could.

As for this series, I do think the art hurt the book initially. It seemed like the editor was either a fan of manga style or thought using that style would bring in younger/teen readers (something that seemed to be a similar thought process behind the choices made on Tim Drake: Robin.) Even when the interior artwork changed, the cover artist never did. I would have thought Robbi Rodriguez would have brought more attention to the book coming off of the success of Spider-Gwen, but he didn't seem to attract anyone. The covers however continued to be a hot mess. DC did try to prop the series up with variant covers including putting some of their currently hottest artists on them such as Dan Mora and David Marquez. Cloonan and Conrad, while not the strongest writers are serviceable and certainly capable of keeping a series going I would think...but combined with poor art, there's nothing to elevate their writing.

I really think Batgirls as a book could work. However, it certainly needs a major overhaul at this point. On one of the Tim Drake threads, someone brought up the idea of combining them into a Gotham Knights type series which would be an excellent idea as long as the mis-steps made on these two series aren't repeated. A solid creative team writer and artist is needed for readers to not just walk away, who that could be at this point...I dont even know. David Marquez on art would be exceptional but would a book like this be "beneath" his level? The writer however is a different issue...it's going to have to be someone with some amount of clout and ability to them.

[Aahz]

The fact that nearly every creator on the Batgirl book has been excluded from being a tie-in to major events with other books is a huge problem, I think, leading to a feeling that it's not an "essential" book.

Don't know for the most part all Bat-books (including TEC) other than the main Series get usually only pretty pointless tie ins to the Batevents, and I can't really think of any Events other than Robin War (which wasn't a major Batman event) and Fear State (when there was iirc no Batgirls book), were Batgirl didn't had a tie in and the other Bat-Books got one.

[Factor]

While Bryan Q Miller would be my top choice for a new Batgirls run, it would be interesting to see Gail Simone's take on it too. I'm sure DC could find a high profile creative team if they wanted.
I think it's a shame Nightwing gets to have a major push while Batgirl(s) is seen as a lesser IP.

[Frontier]

I do seem to recall Castelucci not being invited to the retreats as well (it seemed to be a recurring theme with Batgirl writers, left out of the overall meetings.)

Also, Simone had intended to do a lighter toned series but was told to darken down from what I remember. She wasn't a fan herself of the style she was asked to do, but wasn't going to let someone else bring Babs out of the chair, she took true ownership of the character for as much as she could.

As for this series, I do think the art hurt the book initially. It seemed like the editor was either a fan of manga style or thought using that style would bring in younger/teen readers (something that seemed to be a similar thought process behind the choices made on Tim Drake: Robin.) Even when the interior artwork changed, the cover artist never did. I would have thought Robbi Rodriguez would have brought more attention to the book coming off of the success of Spider-Gwen, but he didn't seem to attract anyone. The covers however continued to be a hot mess. DC did try to prop the series up with variant covers including putting some of their currently hottest artists on them such as Dan Mora and David Marquez. Cloonan and Conrad, while not the strongest writers are serviceable and certainly capable of keeping a series going I would think...but combined with poor art, there's nothing to elevate their writing.

I really think Batgirls as a book could work. However, it certainly needs a major overhaul at this point. On one of the Tim Drake threads, someone brought up the idea of combining them into a Gotham Knights type series which would be an excellent idea as long as the mis-steps made on these two series aren't repeated. A solid creative team writer and artist is needed for readers to not just walk away, who that could be at this point...I dont even know. David Marquez on art would be exceptional but would a book like this be "beneath" his level? The writer however is a different issue...it's going to have to be someone with some amount of clout and ability to them.

I don't think the art was quite the "good" kind of manga style for either this or Tim's book. Also if I remember right wasn't Robbi Rodriguez outed as a creep alongside Jason Latour? At least I remember something like that coming up.

While Bryan Q Miller would be my top choice for a new Batgirls run, it would be interesting to see Gail Simone's take on it too. I'm sure DC could find a high profile creative team if they wanted.
I think it's a shame Nightwing gets to have a major push while Batgirl(s) is seen as a lesser IP.

Simone writing Batgirls would be kind of amusing because I think she's expressed interested in writing Cass and Steph before but they were always unavailable for her to use.

[Lal]

While Bryan Q Miller would be my top choice for a new Batgirls run, it would be interesting to see Gail Simone's take on it too. I'm sure DC could find a high profile creative team if they wanted.
I think it's a shame Nightwing gets to have a major push while Batgirl(s) is seen as a lesser IP.

Nightwing only got a big push in Dark Crisis after his series became one of DC's most consistent sellers, And while Taylor and Redondo are a strong creative team, they only moved to Nightwing after their previous book, Suicide Squad, failed.

And Batgirls was pushed pretty hard, with backups in the main bat books, advertising the new series in a lot of other books, or even including the beginning of the first issue in other books.

So it's not like Batgirls didn't get a push. It just didn't translate to sales.

[millernumber1]

I don't think the art was quite the "good" kind of manga style for either this or Tim's book. Also if I remember right wasn't Robbi Rodriguez outed as a creep alongside Jason Latour? At least I remember something like that coming up.

Simone writing Batgirls would be kind of amusing because I think she's expressed interested in writing Cass and Steph before but they were always unavailable for her to use.

Yes, Rodriguez was MeTooed a while back. I'm pretty annoyed that DC has done nothing about it but kept putting him on Batgirl books.

I sadly have very little faith in Simone as a writer in the past 5 years. Even when she's writing stuff that doesn't seem to have any editorial dictates, I don't feel the same skill or passion that her best work in BoP and Secret Six had.

[MajorHoy]

I think they should choose one batgirl and try to made something different while Barbara is in Nightwing with the Oracle codename.
If it were the perfect world, we could have a Robin&Spoiler comic and a Black Cat mini while Barbara is helping Dick as Oracle

Wouldn't Marvel Comics object if DC published a "Black Cat" mini-series?

And there questions as to whether there would be problems naming a comic book "Black Bat".