Batgirls

[Felipe Silveira]

Wouldn't Marvel Comics object if DC published a "Black Cat" mini-series?

And there questions as to whether there would be problems naming a comic book "Black Bat".

If it's written by Jed MacKay, we know it's pretty good.

[Stryfe8]

These cancellations are a lesson in reader expectations. Readers expected team Batgirl to be an easy sell, readers expected that Tim Drake can still draw like he did 20 years ago. And continually criticize DC for not delivering these things to them. Yet when DC does, well as you can see. This isn’t the same market it was even a decade ago, and what readers claim they want doesn’t mean general audiences will want it too.

Batgirl hasn’t really ever lit these charts on fire. Steph and Cass haven’t had an audience in years, and Babs needs more support if they want her to really sell again. Much like the case was with Nightwing.
Batgirl though is a brand that exists in a man’s world, yet it’s true worth extends beyond this market. Its hard to sell female lead comics in the this market. Beyond propping them with 20 variants. As we have seen with many iconic female titles 19 issues in this market isn’t that bad. The real goal extends beyond the floppy sales.

funny thing,

ive been buying batgirls. its not great, but it's lighthearted fun. The "problem" is that a: nothing seems to happen and b: charactarisation is all over the map. I have no idea which version im supposed to be reading compared to every other series. am i reading batgirl cas, orphan cas, black bat cas? spoiler, dectcomics stepth, good friends wiyh jason cas.? is babs living with the girls in gotham or dick in bludhaven?

i dont mind the quirky art, but this wasnt harley quinn off in her own little universe, yet nothing happened that had any effect anywhere else

[ohfellow]

David Marquez on art would be exceptional but would a book like this be "beneath" his level? The writer however is a different issue...it's going to have to be someone with some amount of clout and ability to them.

David Marquez is fantastic, but these days never stays on a book beyond one arc. Mostly he does covers.

And Batgirls was pushed pretty hard, with backups in the main bat books, advertising the new series in a lot of other books, or even including the beginning of the first issue in other books.

So it's not like Batgirls didn't get a push. It just didn't translate to sales.

I agree - Steph and Cass were actually featured a lot as supporting characters across the Bat lineup of books - they even both showed up in The Joker, and Steph is in the current Joker book. I've liked their treatment in these books.

Now for my latest rant about Corona - this time, about his covers.

I believe Corona's covers have sold zero issues to impulse buyers. I've suggested here, I think, that his recent covers have been a kind of dare to DC - he's just been drawing more and more awful covers almost as a dare. I can't imagine him seriously thinking these were attractive covers. But for some reason DC was enamored with his Batgirls work.

On the majority of his covers, the Batgirls are small and in the background.

I'll allow that the following covers were acceptable: #1, #15, #17 and #19. That's it. Four of nineteen. The rest barely featured the Batgirls.

And Barbara was rarely on the cover.

Here's my summary of the covers:

#2 (it's mostly about Bondo, small Batgirls)
#3 (fairly small)
#4 (Cass almost invisible, blending with the grays, and just the Batgirls' heads drawn)
#5 (tiny Cass)
#6 (the Batgirls' heads on small portraits)
#7 (Steph and Cass small)
#8 (Steph and Cass tiny)
#9 (Batgirls wearing silly beach accessories)
#10 (Cass in a crouch, Steph is basically a cape)
#11 (small Steph, smaller part of Cass)
#12 (almost imperceptible Batgirls)
#13 (all I can say is that this has to be in contention for the worst cover in the history of the comic book form!)
#14 (Steph represented by a rumpled purple cape, Cass mostly her own Corona-ized cape, all of it in signature dreary gray Sarah Stern coloring)
#16 (Batgirls small and kind of smooshed together, again Steph is mostly a cape)
#18 (Batgirls are tiny winged creatures)

In the damned FINAL ISSUE, #19, he draws the Batgirls as two recognizable human beings, with some dignity, and actually in the foreground - though they are not at all dynamic.

HE HAS BEEN ABSOLUTELY AWFUL!!!!! Has been a huge detriment to shelf appeal.

The variants have been universally great, and I own every one of the regular-priced ones, but variants aren't the answer.

[dietrich]

DC never really gave Tim fans what they want even when they acted like they were and I think miller hit it on the head as to why this book never quite hit the sweet spot of what all the fans of the Batgirls were hoping for/expecting.

Dc did 100% give in and relaunched Tim based on fandom demands and the most popular Tim Drake HC.

Tim is most like Batman/Tim is the most qualified to become Batman- Batman Beyond.

Tim should have been the spy/Dick should have offered Nightwing to Tim when he became Batman - New 52 TT and the pitch to have Tim take over as nightwing in Rebirth.

DC just bring back the core 4 and relaunch YJ - Rebirth YJ brought back looking like the had been vacuum sealed since the 90's and unaffected by time

Tim shouldn't be Red Robin. He was best as Robin next to Bruce - Rebirth tec, current Batman run

The 90's Robin series was best Tim. That series was special because we got to see Tim juggling hero work and his personal life. It ran for 200 issues - Tim's current solo where he's juggling hero work and his personal life.

DC has always listened to and taken Tim's character in fandom's most requested directions.

This by the way is exclusive to Tim Drake. The same can't be said for the other Robins.

On this site is a massive thread [over 70 pages] What to do with Tim Drake that shows that the top suggestions are:

Make him Robin. Red robin is a bad name.
Give him a solo where he's solving crime, bring back his supporting cast and give him a social life like he used to have.
Team him with Batman.
Bring back YJ
Give him a detective story with Det Chimp[change his name to Grey Ghost]
Make him Blue Beetle

DC has follow through and published titles based on a number of these premises.

Your argument is that they did a poor job or that those runs were divisive that is often the case with comics. No comic run is universally beloved. It also doesn't change the fact DC has given the fans exactly what they were demanding and it didn't result in sales success.

[Aahz]

Your argument is that they did a poor job or that those runs were divisive that is often the case with comics. No comic run is universally beloved. It also doesn't change the fact DC has given the fans exactly what they were demanding and it didn't result in sales success.

But those comics were for the most part among the weakest DC put out. And in many cases they never even really clarified what parts of pre flashpoint and new 52 were in continuity and what were weren't.

I think their best shot would have been to use the Tynion run on TEC to set up something new for Tim, and clarify what is continuity.
But unfortunatly they didn't do the first part, and made imo the second even worse.

Btw. I have the feeling that Tim's entire generation could really need some sort of "secret origin" book that clarifies the continuity part (and clears up how old these character are actually meant to be).
Ok what ever they decide on will probaly piss of some part of the fandom, but it would at least make their books far less jarring to read.

[HsssH]

It is not like every other character got only slam dunks, here lets look at Nightwing since Flashpoint and what fans didn't like about his treatment:
Being back as Nightwing, having red suit, Chicago, Court of owls connection, Forever Evil, Grayson (opinions changed only after first 6 or so issues), not being Grayson anymore, Bludhaven returning, **** Titan stories, getting shot in the head and whole Ric deal. And not everyone likes Taylor's shallow writing either. But somehow character is moving forward.

[dietrich]

It is not like every other character got only slam dunks, here lets look at Nightwing since Flashpoint and what fans didn't like about his treatment:
Being back as Nightwing, having red suit, Chicago, Court of owls connection, Forever Evil, Grayson (opinions changed only after first 6 or so issues), not being Grayson anymore, Bludhaven returning, **** Titan stories, getting shot in the head and whole Ric deal. And not everyone likes Taylor's shallow writing either. But somehow character is moving forward.

This exactly. All of the bat kids from pre-Flashpoint to date have all had a few bad runs/ bad directions that fandom despised. Tim isn't even the worst affected. That would be Jason.

[dietrich]

But those comics were for the most part among the weakest DC put out. And in many cases they never even really clarified what parts of pre flashpoint and new 52 were in continuity and what were weren't.

I think their best shot would have been to use the Tynion run on TEC to set up something new for Tim, and clarify what is continuity.
But unfortunatly they didn't do the first part, and made imo the second even worse.

Btw. I have the feeling that Tim's entire generation could really need some sort of "secret origin" book that clarifies the continuity part (and clears up how old these character are actually meant to be).
Ok what ever they decide on will probaly piss of some part of the fandom, but it would at least make their books far less jarring to read.

I believe Johns had planned something like that for Tim during Rebirth. He was supposed to play a bigger role and likely his history would have been ironed out but that fell through.

Tynion also planned to do more with Saviour. He had planned for that version of Tim to feature more as a major bat antagonist. Super Sons of tomorrow also was cut short. We were supposed to get more of the TOT.

[millernumber1]

All of this seems extremely off topic for the Batgirls thread.

[Frontier]

But those comics were for the most part among the weakest DC put out. And in many cases they never even really clarified what parts of pre flashpoint and new 52 were in continuity and what were weren't.

I think their best shot would have been to use the Tynion run on TEC to set up something new for Tim, and clarify what is continuity.
But unfortunatly they didn't do the first part, and made imo the second even worse.

Btw. I have the feeling that Tim's entire generation could really need some sort of "secret origin" book that clarifies the continuity part (and clears up how old these character are actually meant to be).
Ok what ever they decide on will probaly piss of some part of the fandom, but it would at least make their books far less jarring to read.

Are the Eternals even still Steph and Cass's origins?

[Aahz]

Tynion also planned to do more with Saviour. He had planned for that version of Tim to feature more as a major bat antagonist. Super Sons of tomorrow also was cut short. We were supposed to get more of the TOT.

But I don't think that that would have helped the main continuity version of Tim much.

And I think the continuity thing is really a big problem.

Just look at the last two iterations of young Justice.

The Bendis run seem to be somehow a follow up to the original pre crisis YJ run, and seemed to ignore all the development afterwards, with the characters acting and looking like in 2003 which had a lot of people confused if the post graduation day Teen titans run was now in continuity or not (even if the Titans od Tomorrow stories was of course from that run).

Same Problem with the Fitzmartin Mini, that run made references to stuff from the Teen titans era, and about how they characters had changed and become more mature, but again gave them a look closer to the 2003 version, and made them look younger than they had been in 2011.

I mean that a bit like you would make a new Series with Dick's generation of Titans that seemd to pick up from the Wolfman Perez Era in the mid to late 80s.

[Aahz]

Are the Eternals even still Steph and Cass's origins?

I'm not sure if even the writers and editors at DC really know that...

[millernumber1]

Are the Eternals even still Steph and Cass's origins?

No idea if Batman Eternal is still Steph's origin, but it's still being referenced heavily with the Batgirls #15 storyline and the current use of Eiko Hasigawa (which is from Valentine's run of Catwoman, which was directly spinning out of Eternal). I personally headcanon that it's not her origin, Tec 647-649 is, but it's a story that she went through sometime in her past. Possibly squished into the long running plot sequel to Batgirl #24 that BQM probably had planned.

[Digifiend]

I agree, they can probably retcon those books as not being their origins, but they still happened, and in Cass's case, is still where she first became Orphan.
'

Mind you, it wasn't until 2000 that DC started publishing a continuing self-titled series starring Batgirl.
In the years before then, there were the occasional one-shots or shorter features that ran in other books.

And the first continuous on-going series titled Robin didn't get launched until 1993.

So DC didn't have a self-titled Batgirl or Robin on-going series for more than fifty years after the debut of Batman.

Yeah, Cass and Tim had ongoing solo books before Babs and Dick ever did - though Batgirl and Robin did have solo features in anthologies like Batman Family and Detective Comics in the 1970s.

I think they should choose one batgirl and try to made something different while Barbara is in Nightwing with the Oracle codename.
If it were the perfect world, we could have a Robin&Spoiler comic and a Black Cat mini while Barbara is helping Dick as Oracle

You mean Black Bat of course.

Wouldn't Marvel Comics object if DC published a "Black Cat" mini-series?

And there questions as to whether there would be problems naming a comic book "Black Bat".

Black Cat was obviously just a typo, but yeah, I'm pretty sure Black Bat belongs to another company, meaning it doesn't matter. If Cass isn't Batgirl, she'll need something completely new. I never liked the Orphan name, considering she's not an orphan.

[Aahz]

Yeah, Cass and Tim had ongoing solo books before Babs and Dick ever did - though Batgirl and Robin did have solo features in anthologies like Batman Family and Detective Comics in the 1970s

Dick had also a solo feature in star spangled comics in the late 40s and eraly 50s iirc, due to wich he actually more appearences in the golden Age than Batman him self.

But I think we will have to see what happens after Knight Terrors, when they are likely launch at least some new titles (and hopefull with stronger creative teams).