Batgirls

[ohfellow]

The breakup still doesn't make sense to me as in the special he told Steph she was always everything he ever wanted and more. Why dump her then?????? It falls into the whole bi people must date the opposite gender to be truly bi thing as well.

I chalk it up to the writer not knowing how to break them up and hating Steph.

I know we have discussed this before, and it probably belongs in the Stephanie Brown and/or Tim Drake threads.

But, I hope someday Meghan Fitzmartin can shed some light on this particular interaction:

Tim: I just realized... it wasn't because of your gender, you know. I don't only like girls.
Steph: It means the world you told me. We're fine.

Is that not Tim saying - "it's not that I have any problem with girls in general. I do like girls still. It's just that I don't like you romantically any more.

And to that, Steph says "Oh, good!"

Now - maybe Fitzmartin was trying to address this thing where when someone is left for a member of the opposite sex, that person might feel upset, or even gross - as in "you must have been revolted by me that whole time." In which case Tim is reassuring her it wasn't that way at all. But in doing so, he is making it personal, that he just doesn't want her anymore.

So I wonder, truly, what Fitzmartin meant by it. Did she want to cover that general base, or was it just a thoughtless thing to write? I mean, ignoring this part of it, this was just a poor story about a magic elephant, a metaphor in search of a story, and with bad dialog and some strange and even unexplained plot points. So why should this part of the story be any different? But it needed to be handled with better care.

Or blame it on the editor. Dave Wielgosz has edited all of her Tim Drake stories, and is also editing her Dark Crisis: Young Justice mini-series, which is just not good. They are a team.

I also consider editor Jessica Chen responsible for everything bad, or good if you prefer, about Batgirls. She chose the artists, and she's keeping Cloonan and Conrad on the job. And she inserts herself into the storytelling by writing dialog between herself and Cloonan/Conrad!

She also took over on the last Batgirl series for its final 8 issues, and was in charge for Batgirl #50 where Barbara callously had a fight with her dad right after James Jr.'s funeral; got angry at Bruce for giving to the wrong charity and giving his kids allowances; and got angry at Dick because he lost his memory! Then apologizes to Jason Bard as Batgirl, and then wraps herself around him as Barbara. No one liked a single word of any of this. Barbara was character assassinated in her final issue!

So, these editors need to at least share the blame. Or, maybe they are entirely responsible. Is a newbie comic book writer given free rein to write whatever she wants, and DC simply publishes it? Or is it more like the writer is directed how to write the story? I believe it's the latter.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I know we have discussed this before, and it probably belongs in the Stephanie Brown and/or Tim Drake threads.

But, I hope someday Meghan Fitzmartin can shed some light on this particular interaction:

Tim: I just realized... it wasn't because of your gender, you know. I don't only like girls.
Steph: It means the world you told me. We're fine.

Is that not Tim saying - "it's not that I have any problem with girls in general. I do like girls still. It's just that I don't like you romantically any more.

And to that, Steph says "Oh, good!"

Now - maybe Fitzmartin was trying to address this thing where when someone is left for a member of the opposite sex, that person might feel upset, or even gross - as in "you must have been revolted by me that whole time." In which case Tim is reassuring her it wasn't that way at all. But in doing so, he is making it personal, that he just doesn't want her anymore.

So I wonder, truly, what Fitzmartin meant by it. Did she want to cover that general base, or was it just a thoughtless thing to write? I mean, ignoring this part of it, this was just a poor story about a magic elephant, a metaphor in search of a story, and with bad dialog and some strange and even unexplained plot points. So why should this part of the story be any different? But it needed to be handled with better care.

Or blame it on the editor. Dave Wielgosz has edited all of her Tim Drake stories, and is also editing her Dark Crisis: Young Justice mini-series, which is just not good. They are a team.

I also consider editor Jessica Chen responsible for everything bad, or good if you prefer, about Batgirls. She chose the artists, and she's keeping Cloonan and Conrad on the job. And she inserts herself into the storytelling by writing dialog between herself and Cloonan/Conrad!

She also took over on the last Batgirl series for its final 8 issues, and was in charge for Batgirl #50 where Barbara callously had a fight with her dad right after James Jr.'s funeral; got angry at Bruce for giving to the wrong charity and giving his kids allowances; and got angry at Dick because he lost his memory! Then apologizes to Jason Bard as Batgirl, and then wraps herself around him as Barbara. No one liked a single word of any of this. Barbara was character assassinated in her final issue!

So, these editors need to at least share the blame. Or, maybe they are entirely responsible. Is a newbie comic book writer given free rein to write whatever she wants, and DC simply publishes it? Or is it more like the writer is directed how to write the story? I believe it's the latter.

I doubt she ever will really. I think she was just trying to cover the general base of bi rep via the bare minimum (in an interview she already said what Tim felt for Steph was real and just repeated that here) rather than trying to respect Tim and Steph's relationship per se as we never get a reason WHY he doesn't want her romantically (and probably never will)

Also that line seem contradictory as he says Steph is more than her gender but it is implied he dumped her because of her gender.

Yeah these editors are I dunno. They seem to be trying to push their headcanons of the characters influenced by twitter/tumblr

[Frontier]

I'm surprised they had so much trouble with Killer Moth.

[Aahz]

So if Kyle Mizoguchi is about the same age as Step and Cass, that would mean they are roughly 17, meaning Cass was still at the age she she was when her first Batgirl series stated, and Steph would be still younger than during her Batgirl Run.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I continue to not appreciate the dumbing down and infantilization of Steph and Cass. Not being able to handle Killer Moth? C'mon. Also Steph acted like a middle schooler with her first crush or a stereotypical boy crazy blonde in regards to Kyle.........

[Aahz]

Btw. it really seems like the series went in terms of pacing from one extreme to the other.

The first issues they did way to many plots at the same time, the last issue had a plot progression as slow as Taylors Nightwing ...

[Ruthborn]

I think that latest issue was actually pretty good. There was fanservice but it pandered to both sides. There was plot progression and world building (GCPD situation). Beautiful location shots and character art. And that end villain reveal. Holy F. I haven't seen that guy since Batman Family (2002).

[sunofdarkchild]

The last two issues have been a marked improvement for the series. The sales would likely be better if the earlier issues were of this quality.

[willtupper]

Random question: does today’s issue #10 happen at the same time as the Gotham Academy story in “DC’s Saved by the Belle Reve?” In that story, Kyle is waiting on his sister.

This issue is what happens while Kyle’s… waiting on his sister.

HOW COOL WILL IT BE IF THEY’RE ALL CONNECTED? I’VE MISSED GOTHAM ACADEMY SO MUCH. CAPITAL LETTERS!1!!!

[WebLurker]

I've been reading Cass' series and...I really don't think there was much in the way of romantic subtext between the two. Particularly for lack of any actual romance for most of the run.

I think it stuff taken out of context or read in too much. To be fair, I think what there would could've been used as a start to have the friendship evolve into love, but I think it had more to do with what those fans wanted to happen then what was there.

[Oberon]

Although I'm not very acquainted with either Tim Drake or Spoiler, it is interesting to note:

in one of the older Titans Tomorrow storylines

Tim Drake is very involved with Bette Kane, who becomes

a BatWoman (in a future that probably doesn't happen/exist anymore)

and of course I sorta feel that Bette Kane is/was the template for Spoiler.

Blonde, originally not connected to crime fighting, etc.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Although I'm not very acquainted with either Tim Drake or Spoiler, it is interesting to note:

in one of the older Titans Tomorrow storylines

Tim Drake is very involved with Bette Kane, who becomes

a BatWoman (in a future that probably doesn't happen/exist anymore)

and of course I sorta feel that Bette Kane is/was the template for Spoiler.

Blonde, originally not connected to crime fighting, etc.

And the older Bette Kane kisses the teenage Tim.............

[millernumber1]

So if Kyle Mizoguchi is about the same age as Step and Cass, that would mean they are roughly 17, meaning Cass was still at the age she she was when her first Batgirl series stated, and Steph would be still younger than during her Batgirl Run.

I'm still assuming that the ages stated in Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal for Steph and Cass - 17 and about 16, respectively - are in effect.

Random question: does today’s issue #10 happen at the same time as the Gotham Academy story in “DC’s Saved by the Belle Reve?” In that story, Kyle is waiting on his sister.

This issue is what happens while Kyle’s… waiting on his sister.

HOW COOL WILL IT BE IF THEY’RE ALL CONNECTED? I’VE MISSED GOTHAM ACADEMY SO MUCH. CAPITAL LETTERS!1!!!

Well, Cloonan is working on both stories, so that would be perfect!

Also, we have solicits for December's Batgirl #13! It looks like the Annual bodyswap storyline isn't just a one shot, but actually the kickoff to a new plot!

Batgirls Steph and Cass were taken off guard when they were captured by their own parents while magically swapped inside each other's body in the 2022 Annual, and now it's time for them to take the power back and do their own confronting! But sometimes it's easier to kick butt than it is to talk about feelings, especially when those feelings hit close to home. Lady Shiva and Cluemaster seem to want to make amends with their daughters, but if the girls know anything, it's that nothing is ever what it seems!

[Digifiend]

Thanks for spoiling the annual, solicit writer.

I wouldn’t call their relationship sisterly but I also don’t like that. I’d rather Steph started dating some dude tho. Cass needs opponent who can challenge her. I’d also like Babs to moove out but they kinda needs her and if so, then mention why the girls are not in school.

That shouldn't need explaining, as they should've already graduated.

The Tim Drake Pride special was a reprint of his Urban Legends back ups though. I’d expect most people that were interested already had those issues.
Hopefully Tim’s new series will sell well. I would love for it and Batgirls to both continue.

There was a new story. Plus, not everyone will have bought Urban Legends, if they weren't interested in the other three stories.

So if Kyle Mizoguchi is about the same age as Step and Cass, that would mean they are roughly 17, meaning Cass was still at the age she she was when her first Batgirl series stated, and Steph would be still younger than during her Batgirl Run.

There's been no mention of their ages though.

I'm still assuming that the ages stated in Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal for Steph and Cass - 17 and about 16, respectively - are in effect.

That definitely shouldn't be the case, as that's in New 52. Damian has aged up FOUR years since then (from 10 to 14). There's absolutely no excuse for Tim, Steph, and Cass not to be depicted as 19 years old at least now.

[millernumber1]

That definitely shouldn't be the case, as that's in New 52. Damian has aged up FOUR years since then (from 10 to 14). There's absolutely no excuse for Tim, Steph, and Cass not to be depicted as 19 years old at least now.

Damian has aged, yes, but Tim hasn't - as far as I know, he's been 16 since 2011. Should that have happened? Absolutely not. But I think it did.