Batgirls

[Aahz]

I can strongly state without a shadow of a doubt that if Cass was played by Tim in this comic, nobody would have any issue with them going down a romantic route,

I don't think that's a good comparison.
Tim and Steph have allready a pretty long romantic history, have been past the point of just kissing since rebirth I think.

[sunofdarkchild]

A this point I'd be happy if every character in comics was declared asexual and there was no more romance in any Marvel or DC comic, because I haven't seen a half-way decently written romance since Batwoman and Maggie Sawyer. Modern comics writers don't know how to write romances.

[Chickfighter]

A this point I'd be happy if every character in comics was declared asexual and there was no more romance in any Marvel or DC comic, because I haven't seen a half-way decently written romance since Batwoman and Maggie Sawyer. Modern comics writers don't know how to write romances.

THIS! And it is not really the point of superhero comics.

[Frontier]

I guess, IMHO, I don't see the character dynamics changing that much if they did get together (they're living together already, the series has gone out of its way to highlight just how emotionally close they are). I guess it could be debated what them becoming a couple would add to the table (if DC is currently going on the narrative that Steph and Tim weren't right for each other, you could have her find "the one" or could spin it on the idea that they lost or never had family growing up, so find each other to make one going forward or something), but I still think they have a good starting point if they want to.

I think there's a difference between being partners as best friends versus being partners as lovers/girlfriends, though your mileage may vary. Of course they were spinning Tim as "the one" for so many years...

A this point I'd be happy if every character in comics was declared asexual and there was no more romance in any Marvel or DC comic, because I haven't seen a half-way decently written romance since Batwoman and Maggie Sawyer. Modern comics writers don't know how to write romances.

I like romance in comics.

THIS! And it is not really the point of superhero comics.

I think to some extent it is because romance, even if the execution wasn't always great because of the times, was an element or at least a factor even in the earliest issues of the biggest Superhero properties.

Like you don't have to have it, but romance in some form is a big element in the genre.

[ComicNoobie]

Personally I've just always enjoyed Steph and Cass as BFFs. Their friendship is already so endearing and strong that it doesn't need a romance subplot added to it. Romantic flirting and kissing isn't going to add to what is already a heartwarming and fun dynamic the two share. It's funny because I love the fanart shipping of them but I personally don't need it being in the main series. And again I would like to see Steph without a major love interest for awhile. I like that she's taking things slow after Tim. I'm not anti-romance or anything, but I just don't think Steph and Cass need it. That's just me though.

[Digifiend]

(I don't think JonxJay and TimxBernard are flattering comparisons, although I guess if you're a fan of those relationships...)

I won't be surprised if those relationships fail to survive a change of writer. So Jay might be gone when Taylor stops writing Jon after his new mini, and Bernard might be gone when Fitzmartin's Robin book gets cancelled.

[millernumber1]

I like romance in comics.

I think to some extent it is because romance, even if the execution wasn't always great because of the times, was an element or at least a factor even in the earliest issues of the biggest Superhero properties.

Like you don't have to have it, but romance in some form is a big element in the genre.

I love romance in comics! One of my very favorite series of all time is Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane, and I love romantic stories as well. I do think that comics currently have a lot of badly written romances (though I'd argue this has always been the case - we tend to remember the best written ones, after all), but there's still some really good ones - Wally and Linda in the current Flash book as a big example. I also quite like the organic, awkward but sweet flirting and romance negotiation between Steph and Kyle in this book - so I think it's definitely something that can be done, even in this specific book.

[Majesty]

Do wish that the Powers That Be had explained whether or not we got it right that the characters were a couple in "Future State" and what the thinking behind that was, if so. It's not every day that fan theories get incorporated into official material.

Something else to chew on; if "Future State" does branch off of the main DC Universe and Steph and Cass were a couple in that universe, that would suggest that the two are on the LGTBQ spectrum, even if we haven't seen them explicitly self-identify or have a same sex relationship. (I suppose DC could just cite the parallel universe trope if they wanted the main versions to be straight, but I didn't think the stories suggested that the two realities had always been separate, if similar.)

I agree. I would hope that DC wouldn't be irresponsible enough to essentially say "People have different sexualities in the multiverse". Because that just opens up a can of worms I don't think they want to. If them doing stories like that in Future State is their way of implying or saying that both Cass and Steph are LGBTQ that's definitely one way to do it. If anything it means that Steph and Cass getting together is always a possibility, if not inevitable. Which I do not mind at all. What I don't want, is for them to find out that in the future they are together and make the same speech about "I am not going to be a slave to 'destiny'," and then not get together because of that. Essentially what they did with Miles and Gwen at first, and what they did with Green Lantern and Hawkgirl. I despise that trope with every fiber of my being.

Yeah, my use of "reading too much into something" was with the idea of considering authorial intent. Add another layer of trickiness, with these long-running series, you got different authors and they may change stuff down the road. I guess the way I see it, I like to know what the authorial intent is, when possible, since that gives us a better picture. In the case of Batgirls, if we knew for sure that the characters were being written with a romantic edge or the authors just miscalculated on how touchy-feely friends can get, that changes the game considerably.

At least we know the authorial intent in Future State is that Cass and Stephanie were indeed a couple. I am glad as well that Batgirls did lean into those aspects in their own way instead of acting like it's something that can never exist. Again, I am someone that has always wanted Cass and Harper Row to get together, but Batgirls really did shine a light on just how good Cass and Steph are together, not just in their friendship and their bond, but also their understanding of each other as well as how good they'd be as a couple as well.

If they are going to do a love story, this would be the moment to start making things happen.
It does seem like sometimes friendships get more work put into the writing than romance, which might give the former more depth. Course, I thought the montage in the Annual of Steph and Cass just goofing off together painted the picture of a deeper relationship then seeing the central couple kissing in a pretty park or something.

I agree. The most interesting thing is that when shows or comics write characters as friends when there's a clear romantic subplot that can be added to it (but they don't commit to it), those characters often have a greater chemistry and more intimate moments than the 'couple pairing' that the show usually goes with. We've seen it for years where two characters have a fantastic chemistry, bond, and moments with each other, which is what makes fans ship them in the first place as so much time and effort is given to the 'little moments' between them that can be framed as romantic or a journey of getting together. Only to have the rug pulled underneath them by a hetero pairing the writers put together because they smiled at each other while opening a door or something. It's what makes people hope that eventually they'll get those kind of bonds/connection written in a story with characters and it does get the romantic chance. There's a lot of "friendships" that get some of the best moments between characters where their connection is so strong it can very easily be written romantically, especially in comparison to the pairings the characters are usually given.

When Steph talks about 'normal' and Cass asks her if 'normal' is why she hangs out with Kyle, and Steph refers to Kyle more so as 'absolute normality' but she is still figuring out if thats why she wants to spend time with him. You can look at it and wonder if Steph actually wants 'absolute normality', or the 'normal' she wants isn't absolute, but instead is what her and Cass had in those frames where we saw them playing video games, spending time together and bonding the way they were. If they wind up getting together in the future one would assume that Steph eventually does decide that 'absolute normality' isn't for her. This is an arc that we've seen a lot of heroes go through actually.

I guess, IMHO, I don't see the character dynamics changing that much if they did get together (they're living together already, the series has gone out of its way to highlight just how emotionally close they are). I guess it could be debated what them becoming a couple would add to the table (if DC is currently going on the narrative that Steph and Tim weren't right for each other, you could have her find "the one" or could spin it on the idea that they lost or never had family growing up, so find each other to make one going forward or something), but I still think they have a good starting point if they want to.

That's because best friends can make great relationships. They can have a great dynamic and work off each other extremely well and know each others tendencies like the back of their hand as well as have deep conversations with them that they may be apprehensive to talk about with someone else. Steph's letter she wrote to Cass and the fact she didn't end the letter with "I love you." But instead made it as a statement/confession in and of itself in the letter because it followed other things was a wonderful storybeat. The fact the only words 'spoken' in Cass's issue was Steph's letter was a brilliant masterful idea. But it also is Steph talking at a level about herself in a form of deepness that she really would only tell Cass because Cass is the only person that would understand. When you have that level of intimate and in depth closeness with someone and can bring out the best of each other and it does go romantic, it's not a negative. It doesn't 'ruin' their friendship, their friendship and bond is what would make their relationship stronger in that regard. Again, it has to be done right as do all things. But the foundation and building blocks the comic has put there whether the writers wish to use it or not are perfectly in place for it to be an actual romantic payoff and actual good storytelling of a friends to lovers dynamic. It's there for them. It's just up to the powers that be if they get to go all the way with it.

[Frontier]

That's because best friends can make great relationships. They can have a great dynamic and work off each other extremely well and know each others tendencies like the back of their hand as well as have deep conversations with them that they may be apprehensive to talk about with someone else. Steph's letter she wrote to Cass and the fact she didn't end the letter with "I love you." But instead made it as a statement/confession in and of itself in the letter because it followed other things was a wonderful storybeat. The fact the only words 'spoken' in Cass's issue was Steph's letter was a brilliant masterful idea. But it also is Steph talking at a level about herself in a form of deepness that she really would only tell Cass because Cass is the only person that would understand. When you have that level of intimate and in depth closeness with someone and can bring out the best of each other and it does go romantic, it's not a negative. It doesn't 'ruin' their friendship, their friendship and bond is what would make their relationship stronger in that regard. Again, it has to be done right as do all things. But the foundation and building blocks the comic has put there whether the writers wish to use it or not are perfectly in place for it to be an actual romantic payoff and actual good storytelling of a friends to lovers dynamic. It's there for them. It's just up to the powers that be if they get to go all the way with it.

No wonder people ship same-sex best friends all the time .

[Chickfighter]

Personally I've just always enjoyed Steph and Cass as BFFs. Their friendship is already so endearing and strong that it doesn't need a romance subplot added to it. Romantic flirting and kissing isn't going to add to what is already a heartwarming and fun dynamic the two share. It's funny because I love the fanart shipping of them but I personally don't need it being in the main series. And again I would like to see Steph without a major love interest for awhile. I like that she's taking things slow after Tim. I'm not anti-romance or anything, but I just don't think Steph and Cass need it. That's just me though.

That's a very sensible take.

[AnakinFlair]

I love romance in comics! One of my very favorite series of all time is Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane, and I love romantic stories as well. I do think that comics currently have a lot of badly written romances (though I'd argue this has always been the case - we tend to remember the best written ones, after all), but there's still some really good ones - Wally and Linda in the current Flash book as a big example. I also quite like the organic, awkward but sweet flirting and romance negotiation between Steph and Kyle in this book - so I think it's definitely something that can be done, even in this specific book.

Unfortunately, Spider-Man and Mary Jane also show what can go wrong with romance in comics. Specifically, a new writer (or editor) shows up, and suddenly wants the characters single again, so they do some stupid, contrived story to break them up. Or Editorial suddenly has cold feet about a couple that's been established and breaks them up for... reasons.

[millernumber1]

Unfortunately, Spider-Man and Mary Jane also show what can go wrong with romance in comics. Specifically, a new writer (or editor) shows up, and suddenly wants the characters single again, so they do some stupid, contrived story to break them up. Or Editorial suddenly has cold feet about a couple that's been established and breaks them up for... reasons.

I'm all too aware of that. After all, I'm a TimSteph shipper, and a PeterMJ shipper, and a BatCat shipper. But millernumber1, you say, all of those ships are canon! But, I counter, editors have also made them NOT canon anymore multiple times in my liftime!

I still love romance plots. They are a huge part of what makes us human.

[WebLurker]

I think there's a difference between being partners as best friends versus being partners as lovers/girlfriends, though your mileage may vary.

Obviously, it's not a one-for-one; just saying that this series seems like it could be leading up to the latter and not much, if anything, would change as of right now, IMHO.

Of course they were spinning Tim as "the one" for so many years...

Given the push Bernard has gotten in outside media, I have wondered if DC is at least considered rebranding him as Tim's default love interest. While Tim and Steph were the original default couple, I'm not sure they're big enough to not be rebranded, unlike how Marvel has been unable to get the fans to forget about Spider-Man/Mary Jane in literally over a decade.

I agree. I would hope that DC wouldn't be irresponsible enough to essentially say "People have different sexualities in the multiverse". Because that just opens up a can of worms I don't think they want to. If them doing stories like that in Future State is their way of implying or saying that both Cass and Steph are LGBTQ that's definitely one way to do it. If anything it means that Steph and Cass getting together is always a possibility, if not inevitable. Which I do not mind at all.

I have seen the different sexualities across the multiverse thing done, but usually either as a side effect of welding different adaptations together into a multiverse or within a specific work comparing characters.

What I don't want, is for them to find out that in the future they are together and make the same speech about "I am not going to be a slave to 'destiny'," and then not get together because of that. Essentially what they did with Miles and Gwen at first, and what they did with Green Lantern and Hawkgirl. I despise that trope with every fiber of my being.

I think the Hawk's are the only kind of characters were an escape destiny romance thing works (and only then, IMHO, if the writer has already set up another love story and is using it as part of the plot, instead of trying to derail an already-existing love story.

At least we know the authorial intent in Future State is that Cass and Stephanie were indeed a couple. I am glad as well that Batgirls did lean into those aspects in their own way instead of acting like it's something that can never exist. Again, I am someone that has always wanted Cass and Harper Row to get together, but Batgirls really did shine a light on just how good Cass and Steph are together, not just in their friendship and their bond, but also their understanding of each other as well as how good they'd be as a couple as well.

Should note that the we're only assuming that the author intended that; the only info we have is a re-Tweet from them r.e. a scan from the comic (the end when they're hugging) with emojis of a black-haired woman holding hands with a blond-haired one besides a few hearts with LGBTQ-associated colors. It's very hard to read it any other way, but it's not a direct confirmation, either.

I agree. The most interesting thing is that when shows or comics write characters as friends when there's a clear romantic subplot that can be added to it (but they don't commit to it), those characters often have a greater chemistry and more intimate moments than the 'couple pairing' that the show usually goes with. We've seen it for years where two characters have a fantastic chemistry, bond, and moments with each other, which is what makes fans ship them in the first place as so much time and effort is given to the 'little moments' between them that can be framed as romantic or a journey of getting together. Only to have the rug pulled underneath them by a hetero pairing the writers put together because they smiled at each other while opening a door or something. It's what makes people hope that eventually they'll get those kind of bonds/connection written in a story with characters and it does get the romantic chance. There's a lot of "friendships" that get some of the best moments between characters where their connection is so strong it can very easily be written romantically, especially in comparison to the pairings the characters are usually given.

Think the trick is to give careful thought to all the character dynamics and put similar amounts of effort into them. On the other hand, I sometimes wonder if people prefer the idea of the unexpected love story happening.

When Steph talks about 'normal' and Cass asks her if 'normal' is why she hangs out with Kyle, and Steph refers to Kyle more so as 'absolute normality' but she is still figuring out if thats why she wants to spend time with him. You can look at it and wonder if Steph actually wants 'absolute normality', or the 'normal' she wants isn't absolute, but instead is what her and Cass had in those frames where we saw them playing video games, spending time together and bonding the way they were. If they wind up getting together in the future one would assume that Steph eventually does decide that 'absolute normality' isn't for her. This is an arc that we've seen a lot of heroes go through actually.

Wonder if the authors put that much thought into it, or just saw the two relationships as their own things?

As noted before, I'm pretty sure that Kyle is only temporary love interest. If so, I will be very interested in what the narrative point of it is and where the writers want to go with Steph having a brief relationship after Tim dumped her. In a Steph/Cass scenario, it could work as a stepping stone, but I suppose they could also go with her deciding that she doesn't need a boyfriend right now and her time with her friends is good, or a form of self-validation, or something. It would fit perfectly into a love story (the second trope so far), which may or may not be odd if they're not going that way.

(While I've found Kyle to be kinda bland so far, so glad that the writers at least have been depicting him as a decent person that it makes total sense that Steph would be interested in.)

That's because best friends can make great relationships. They can have a great dynamic and work off each other extremely well and know each others tendencies like the back of their hand as well as have deep conversations with them that they may be apprehensive to talk about with someone else. Steph's letter she wrote to Cass and the fact she didn't end the letter with "I love you." But instead made it as a statement/confession in and of itself in the letter because it followed other things was a wonderful storybeat. The fact the only words 'spoken' in Cass's issue was Steph's letter was a brilliant masterful idea. But it also is Steph talking at a level about herself in a form of deepness that she really would only tell Cass because Cass is the only person that would understand. When you have that level of intimate and in depth closeness with someone and can bring out the best of each other and it does go romantic, it's not a negative. It doesn't 'ruin' their friendship, their friendship and bond is what would make their relationship stronger in that regard. Again, it has to be done right as do all things. But the foundation and building blocks the comic has put there whether the writers wish to use it or not are perfectly in place for it to be an actual romantic payoff and actual good storytelling of a friends to lovers dynamic. It's there for them. It's just up to the powers that be if they get to go all the way with it.

Sure. (thought the letter narration did end with an "I love you," but I've only seen clips of it so far.)

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Obviously, it's not a one-for-one; just saying that this series seems like it could be leading up to the latter and not much, if anything, would change as of right now, IMHO.



Given the push Bernard has gotten in outside media, I have wondered if DC is at least considered rebranding him as Tim's default love interest. While Tim and Steph were the original default couple, I'm not sure they're big enough to not be rebranded, unlike how Marvel has been unable to get the fans to forget about Spider-Man/Mary Jane in literally over a decade.



I have seen the different sexualities across the multiverse thing done, but usually either as a side effect of welding different adaptations together into a multiverse or within a specific work comparing characters.



I think the Hawk's are the only kind of characters were an escape destiny romance thing works (and only then, IMHO, if the writer has already set up another love story and is using it as part of the plot, instead of trying to derail an already-existing love story.



Should note that the we're only assuming that the author intended that; the only info we have is a re-Tweet from them r.e. a scan from the comic (the end when they're hugging) with emojis of a black-haired woman holding hands with a blond-haired one besides a few hearts with LGBTQ-associated colors. It's very hard to read it any other way, but it's not a direct confirmation, either.



Think the trick is to give careful thought to all the character dynamics and put similar amounts of effort into them. On the other hand, I sometimes wonder if people prefer the idea of the unexpected love story happening.



Wonder if the authors put that much thought into it, or just saw the two relationships as their own things?

As noted before, I'm pretty sure that Kyle is only temporary love interest. If so, I will be very interested in what the narrative point of it is and where the writers want to go with Steph having a brief relationship after Tim dumped her. In a Steph/Cass scenario, it could work as a stepping stone, but I suppose they could also go with her deciding that she doesn't need a boyfriend right now and her time with her friends is good, or a form of self-validation, or something. It would fit perfectly into a love story (the second trope so far), which may or may not be odd if they're not going that way.

(While I've found Kyle to be kinda bland so far, so glad that the writers at least have been depicting him as a decent person that it makes total sense that Steph would be interested in.)



Sure. (thought the letter narration did end with an "I love you," but I've only seen clips of it so far.)

They've tried twice to rebrand Tim and Stephanie (her death and new 52) with Cassie which flopped and the sales of Tim's solo show so far indicate it doesn't seem to be working.
'

[Frontier]

Given the push Bernard has gotten in outside media, I have wondered if DC is at least considered rebranding him as Tim's default love interest. While Tim and Steph were the original default couple, I'm not sure they're big enough to not be rebranded, unlike how Marvel has been unable to get the fans to forget about Spider-Man/Mary Jane in literally over a decade.

That would probably require Bernard to be more than the token gay love interest.