Batgirls

[Konja7]

Wait, since when does Shiva "know" Cassandra?

Yeah. That's a pretty interesting question.

Yeah. The idea that Shiva really knows Cassandra doesn't make a lot of sense when you consider Shiva doesn't raise her.

I guess they could mean that Shiva read her movements and notices the difference.

[millernumber1]

Well hopefully it's a quick phase. Still hoping Cassandra's body swap will change her mind. Still I'm very excited for this arc. How will Steph get away from Shiva? And will Cluemaster figure out Cass isn't Steph? Cass will only be in danger if she can't properly "drive" Steph's body otherwise she's got this.

We shall see. But yes, I'm also very excited about this arc, too. The silliness of the concept is offset by the way the writing and art are taking it pretty seriously, really pushing in on the emotions.

Yeah. That's a pretty interesting question.

Yeah. The idea that Shiva really knows Cassandra doesn't make a lot of sense when you consider Shiva doesn't raise her.

I guess they could mean that Shiva read her movements and notices the difference.

I dunno. Shiva's fought Cass to the death twice (I'm counting it, because of Death Metal), and she spent a lot of time with her in the Rebirth Outsiders run (which I did not read much because I didn't think it was well done, but I know it happened). So I don't see why Shiva wouldn't know Cass pretty well.

[Frontier]

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure they've said or implied Shiva's basically stalked/spied on her a few times.

[Godlike13]

We shall see. But yes, I'm also very excited about this arc, too. The silliness of the concept is offset by the way the writing and art are taking it pretty seriously, really pushing in on the emotions.



I dunno. Shiva's fought Cass to the death twice (I'm counting it, because of Death Metal), and she spent a lot of time with her in the Rebirth Outsiders run (which I did not read much because I didn't think it was well done, but I know it happened). So I don't see why Shiva wouldn't know Cass pretty well.

They literally only met a handful of times. Cass didn’t even know she was her mother till she was what 15, and she’s around what 18 now. Originally Shiva was pretty dismissive of Cass as a daughter. They have made her more motherly over the years, but originally giving birth to Cass was transactional. With her interest in Cass being that of an opponent.

[millernumber1]

They literally only met a handful of times. Cass didn’t even know she was her mother till she was what 15, and she’s around what 18 now. Originally Shiva was pretty dismissive of Cass as a daughter. They have made her more motherly over the years, but originally giving birth to Cass was transactional. With her interest in Cass being that of an opponent.

I feel like her facing Cass as an opponent means she's got Cass's movement burned into her brain.

[WebLurker]

I feel like her facing Cass as an opponent means she's got Cass's movement burned into her brain.

Wasn't that a different universe, though?

[millernumber1]

Wasn't that a different universe, though?

Not per Death Metal.

[Felipe Silveira]

Outsiders did a lot for their relationship, and in Urban Legends there was a story with Shiva watching Cass while she was in a normal day.

[Frontier]

They literally only met a handful of times. Cass didn’t even know she was her mother till she was what 15, and she’s around what 18 now. Originally Shiva was pretty dismissive of Cass as a daughter. They have made her more motherly over the years, but originally giving birth to Cass was transactional. With her interest in Cass being that of an opponent.

Is that even in continuity any more? I think it was implied in Tynion's 'Tec run that Shiva had been monitoring her before they fought and Shiva told Cass she was her mom.

[WebLurker]

Not per Death Metal.

That doesn't make sense, given that Cass has two separate origin stories.

[Will Evans]

Outsiders did a lot for their relationship, and in Urban Legends there was a story with Shiva watching Cass while she was in a normal day.

This is the answer right here.

[millernumber1]

That doesn't make sense, given that Cass has two separate origin stories.

Comics and making sense are too often not compatible. I just headcanon it. They all happened!

[Digifiend]

That doesn't make sense, given that Cass has two separate origin stories.

Logically, the older one should trump New 52. I think that's only been explicitly shown for Tim Drake (in Detective Comics) and Donna Troy (in Artemis Wanted - Cassie's is her original origin with her relationship to Zeus keeping it's New 52 modification, per the same source), and obviously Superman (Superman Reborn), though.

[millernumber1]

Logically, the older one should trump New 52. I think that's only been explicitly shown for Tim Drake (in Detective Comics) and the Wonder Girls (both Donna and Cassie, in Artemis Wanted).

The problem with that logic is that the guy who mostly brought back Tim's old origin was also the guy who created both Steph and Cass's old origins (see also: current arc almost certainly is following the events of Batman Eternal, since Cluemaster was alive and more or less well in Batgirl 2009), and he was pretty firm on keeping both Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal in continuity. So you can't just say "old origins trump new ones".

That being said, I say that old origins are the origins, and the two Eternal series happened in a way that doesn't make them origins. Complicated? Possibly impossible to headcanon? YES! But is that what DC is going with? ALSO YES! (Nightwing makes it clear that Babs was Oracle and Cass and Steph had their Batgirl runs, so that's why I just say "they all happened, somehow").

[ChangingStation]

Perhaps to put it more simply, versions of Batman Eternal and to a much lesser extent B&R Eternal happened, but the first origins for Steph and Cass are what DC are going with from now on. Same as with Azrael.

It's basically been softly rebooted. Like what they did with Mr Freeze.