Batgirls

[millernumber1]

She's had BoP written by Gail Simone. A remake isn't going to do anything for Oracle. Oracle needs to to progress forward into the new generation to attract a new generation of audiences.

I think if Simone were still writing stuff of the caliber of her first BoP run, I'd disagree. A great story can always do things for characters. But even in 2010, Simone didn't match her own run with the second BoP run she did, and the many times she's touched the characters since then haven't convinced me otherwise.

I agree she needs to have new good stories, though I don't think BoP is necessarily a destroyed idea. Just that the brand was kind of trashed by the movie and attempts to tie into it.

Babs as Batgirl is still very popular, and it's literally impossible to explain why she remains paralyzed in a world where every male character can bounce back from any physical injury.
Add to that how part of Oracle's work is completely redundant with today's technology and how Babs herself commented on how her violating other people's privacy as Oracle could backfire, and I don't see her reverting back to Oracle full time.
It seems that DC are trying to balance embracing her previous injury but still allowing her to suit up. She's no longer actively Batgirl in the Batgirls book so she doesn't outshine the other Batgirls, but she still get to fight in Nightwing.
That being said, as the Batgirls sales seem to be pretty poor, I don't know how long this series will carry on.

While I agree about the "logic" of "Knightfall happened and so why can Bruce walk and Babs can't", but I also think that Babs's story as Oracle was and is incredibly inspiring, and I don't really care if the logic doesn't make sense.

If Oracle's work is redundant, why does tech support and logistical planning and support still exist as a large part of all industries, especially law enforcement and military operations? That's extremely silly.

Babs being a bit unethical as Oracle was an interesting character flaw that created drama and themes. A feature, not a bug.

Batgirls' individual sales aren't great, but the first trade made the top 20 graphic novels the month it was released, which I think is a surprising and good sign for fans of the series.

There is heaps of Babsgirl hate in here which is really disappointing. Babsgirl will always be my favourite Batgirl and I am happy she isn't in the chair all the time anymore. Everyone should be happy with the Batgirls book because we see Babs in the chair and as Batgirl. I just wish this book was more serious and with better art.

I don't think one poster spreading pretty wacky hate (not just for Babs, but apparently the whole human race), and everyone else telling them that's dumb and bad is "heaps of hate".

True, Batgirls sales don't seem to be good, so this book won't last long. I wonder what will happen after this is over.

I'm not sure Batgirls ending would mean that Barbara will have a Batgirl solo again, since the previous Batgirl solo sales weren't exactly good either. Also, I'm sure her presence in the Nightwing book helps sales on some level too.

I have no clue what DC is planning for the Batfamily at this point. It feels a bit directionless, with Dark Crisis and Lazarus Planet being way, way in the future of the main Batman title, which is mostly stuck in an alternate dimension. Sigh. I really like the current Batman title, but it's not in a leadership position structurally.

The Batgirls not having good sales hurts. This was my primary source to get my daily dose of Stephanie Brown content without having to hunt for her occasional appearances in other Batman books. Keeping up with all the Bat titles is hard!

Well, as I mentioned above about the trade sales, I have some hope! I hope think that the improvement of the writing quality of the book is a good sign.

[Lal]

If Oracle's work is redundant, why does tech support and logistical planning and support still exist as a large part of all industries, especially law enforcement and military operations? That's extremely silly.

Babs being a bit unethical as Oracle was an interesting character flaw that created drama and themes. A feature, not a bug.

Batgirls' individual sales aren't great, but the first trade made the top 20 graphic novels the month it was released, which I think is a surprising and good sign for fans of the series.



I don't think one poster spreading pretty wacky hate (not just for Babs, but apparently the whole human race), and everyone else telling them that's dumb and bad is "heaps of hate".



I have no clue what DC is planning for the Batfamily at this point. It feels a bit directionless, with Dark Crisis and Lazarus Planet being way, way in the future of the main Batman title, which is mostly stuck in an alternate dimension. Sigh. I really like the current Batman title, but it's not in a leadership position structurally.



Well, as I mentioned above about the trade sales, I have some hope! I hope think that the improvement of the writing quality of the book is a good sign.

Comparing Babs to tech support is sadly very true. Basically she just became an exposition tool for writers. She just parrots to the batfamily what they could either google or hack on their own, like they've done for years. That's far from either interesting and basically relegating her to be Siri for others. She deserves better.
It seems that her role as Oracle became less and less relevant. All the batfamily are great hackers. The JL has Cyborg, and even in today's world more and more complex data is analyzed using AI or machine learning. Do the world still need the top notch programmers and engineers to develop these tools? Sure. Do they make interesting stories about her recent code problem? Unless they focus on privacy and violating people's privacy, not really.

[Frontier]

Comparing Babs to tech support is sadly very true. Basically she just became an exposition tool for writers. She just parrots to the batfamily what they could either google or hack on their own, like they've done for years. That's far from either interesting and basically relegating her to be Siri for others. She deserves better.
It seems that her role as Oracle became less and less relevant. All the batfamily are great hackers. The JL has Cyborg, and even in today's world more and more complex data is analyzed using AI or machine learning. Do the world still need the top notch programmers and engineers to develop these tools? Sure. Do they make interesting stories about her recent code problem? Unless they focus on privacy and violating people's privacy, not really.

They basically just turned Alfred into Bruce's Oracle in the New 52.

[millernumber1]

Comparing Babs to tech support is sadly very true. Basically she just became an exposition tool for writers. She just parrots to the batfamily what they could either google or hack on their own, like they've done for years. That's far from either interesting and basically relegating her to be Siri for others. She deserves better.
It seems that her role as Oracle became less and less relevant. All the batfamily are great hackers. The JL has Cyborg, and even in today's world more and more complex data is analyzed using AI or machine learning. Do the world still need the top notch programmers and engineers to develop these tools? Sure. Do they make interesting stories about her recent code problem? Unless they focus on privacy and violating people's privacy, not really.

And you can't think of any way that a strategic genius, researcher, and analyst could be more than just an exposition tool? I don't disagree that a lot of writers are weak on writing Oracle - but that means we have weak writers, not that the character concept is weak or redundant or outdated.

I mean, obviously you're not open to listening or thinking about what I'm saying, since you just repeated what you originally said without listening to what I said at all. But, ya know, that's not actually winning an argument or presenting any new information.

They basically just turned Alfred into Bruce's Oracle in the New 52.

Penny One (and Penny Two!) Though I think that does highlight weak writing, rather than that the role is "redundant".

[Konja7]

And you can't think of any way that a strategic genius, researcher, and analyst could be more than just an exposition tool? I don't disagree that a lot of writers are weak on writing Oracle - but that means we have weak writers, not that the character concept is weak or redundant or outdated.

I mean, if only strong writers could write a good Oracle, that's an issue for the character. Most writers in comics seem to be average.

It makes difficult to work with Oracle in comics, since DC couldn't always find writers who could handle Oracle.

[millernumber1]

I mean, if only strong writers could write a good Oracle, that's an issue for the character. Most writers in comics seem to be average.

It makes difficult to work with Oracle in comics, since DC couldn't always find writers who could handle Oracle.

I think part of it is a problem that's similar to the "let Batman be a detective". The strengths of writers in the 90s tended to be plotting - puzzles, clues, setups and payoffs on a mechanical level. The strengths of writers today tend to be cool moments - writing like a big action movie, setups and payoffs on an emotional level, integrating themes on a conscious level. Those skills aren't better or worse in general, but they are better or worse at writing specific types of characters - in this case, detectives, planners, and people who require a fair amount of careful thought and construction on the plots, rather than the energy of writing being devoted to the dialogue, emotions, quips, and big moments.

tldr: I was being a bit too facile in saying "people can't write Oracle today because they've weak writers". I should have said "the skills that are popular and trendy in writing today are not the skills that are well suited to writing good Oracle (or detective Batman)."

I don't think that means that Oracle is outdated. Just not trendy. Or easy.

[Frontier]

I think the "guy in the chair" type character has become so ubiquitous in fiction that I feel like it's diminished Oracle's value and worth as a character.

[millernumber1]

I think the "guy in the chair" type character has become so ubiquitous in fiction that I feel like it's diminished Oracle's value and worth as a character.

See, that's quite a different argument than "she no longer has a role". I think part of the problem is that people are writing the "guy in the chair" role as purely a support role. I think if you let Babs do what she did in the 90s and early 2000s - actually have a plan, proactive and more than just reacting to problems - and take initiative, it is still a good, vibrant, and interesting role.

But part of the problem there is that in a lot of books, Babs IS a support character. Batgirls technically is exactly the same type of book as Birds of Prey (albeit with a more mobile Babs), and Babs IS taking initiative in this book - training and making plans with Steph and Cass similar to how she trained and made plans with Dinah and Helena - but I feel that until this body swapping arc, where I think she actually got some really decent stuff to do while partnering with Bruce, she's been seen by the writing team as mostly support, except for the (I think pretty poor) #7-8 arc. It doesn't help that I think Taylor has a pretty big chunk of Babs in Nightwing, so editorial won't let the Batgirls team do too much with her.

I dunno. I still think this title (Batgirls) is way better than most people talking about it on the internet will give it credit for. It definitely has problems, but I think there's positives to bring out.

[Lal]

And you can't think of any way that a strategic genius, researcher, and analyst could be more than just an exposition tool? I don't disagree that a lot of writers are weak on writing Oracle - but that means we have weak writers, not that the character concept is weak or redundant or outdated.
Penny One (and Penny Two!) Though I think that does highlight weak writing, rather than that the role is "redundant".

Yes, because none of the traits you mentioned are unique to Oracle.
All the members of the batfamily are great analysts, researchers, hackers, and so on. So they don't need someone to solve cases for them. That's the main reason she's relegated to just giving exposition and Alfred-level information. The bats don't need someone that will take the lead on their cases. They are detectives, so they analyze data and find patterns on their own. That's actually the plot of many of their stories.
So what could writers do? If they let Oracle do the heavy lifting in solving mysteries they make Oracle the brain and the other person the brawn, and so the two characters seem like one decent character could replace both. The other option, which most writers settle on, is just using her to give basic data that could be achieved by a computer search.

And when we think about it, limiting a character to just research takes a lot from the character's agency and independence. Bruce is a strategic genius. He's also out in the field. Nightwing knows how to best utilize his teammates and was considered by Snyder as the best psychological detective in the batfamily, Tim is a gifted hacker and finds patterns and clues and stitches them together. These stories make them rich and interesting characters. In that sense, Babs using her great mind to solve cases is great, but limiting her to only research and analysis instead of being an independent hero, conducting her own investigation and tackling her own cases takes a lot from her character. In the current DCU with so many characters fighting for the very limited books, that doesn't seem sustainable. Being just a strategist, researcher and analyst will likely lead to one of the two - either other characters around her will be nerfed to make her look smart, or she'll be relegated to the Alfred/ Siri role. We've seen both. Neither is very interesting.

But I'd like to hear what story would you tell about Oracle that would really utilize her abilities and be unique to her (so it won't be something that Tim could do).

[millernumber1]

Yes, because none of the traits you mentioned are unique to Oracle.
All the members of the batfamily are great analysts, researchers, hackers, and so on. So they don't need someone to solve cases for them. That's the main reason she's relegated to just giving exposition and Alfred-level information. The bats don't need someone that will take the lead on their cases. They are detectives, so they analyze data and find patterns on their own. That's actually the plot of many of their stories.
So what could writers do? If they let Oracle do the heavy lifting in solving mysteries they make Oracle the brain and the other person the brawn, and so the two characters seem like one decent character could replace both. The other option, which most writers settle on, is just using her to give basic data that could be achieved by a computer search.

And when we think about it, limiting a character to just research takes a lot from the character's agency and independence. Bruce is a strategic genius. He's also out in the field. Nightwing knows how to best utilize his teammates and was considered by Snyder as the best psychological detective in the batfamily, Tim is a gifted hacker and finds patterns and clues and stitches them together. These stories make them rich and interesting characters. In that sense, Babs using her great mind to solve cases is great, but limiting her to only research and analysis instead of being an independent hero, conducting her own investigation and tackling her own cases takes a lot from her character. In the current DCU with so many characters fighting for the very limited books, that doesn't seem sustainable. Being just a strategist, researcher and analyst will likely lead to one of the two - either other characters around her will be nerfed to make her look smart, or she'll be relegated to the Alfred/ Siri role. We've seen both. Neither is very interesting.

But I'd like to hear what story would you tell about Oracle that would really utilize her abilities and be unique to her (so it won't be something that Tim could do).

Well, to start with, I disagree completely with the premise that "because someone else can do something, that character is now redundant." Contrary to Batman Begins (favorite Batman movie though it may be), we are not just what we do. We are also our motivations, values, and desires. And the fact that the Batfamily has a lot of overlapping skills doesn't mean they all have overlapping motivations and values. This reduction to skills and stats is part of why I think the Robins and Batgirls fandoms are so embroiled in unproductive "who is best" competitions and shoulder chips.

And to conclude, there are many stories that Babs's motivations, relationships, and values, which are different from Tim's, would make her unique as Oracle.

[SixSpeedSamurai]

The Batgirls not having good sales hurts. This was my primary source to get my daily dose of Stephanie Brown content without having to hunt for her occasional appearances in other Batman books. Keeping up with all the Bat titles is hard!

I've enjoyed the writing quite a bit. The art has been terrible for the most part though, a real turn off. Maybe we'll give up on the failed Bernard experiment and she'll be a regular in Tim's book (though it's not selling very well either).

[ChangingStation]

Just read the new issue, and while pretty good as a silent comic, I kind of feel like the letter dragged down the issue. Not just because it was overly wordy over a series of panels breaking the immersion of the story as a silent comic, but because it made the rest of the issue leading up to it feel almost pointless.

It might have been better set up had we been shown Cass holding onto the letter throughout her investigation but refusing to open it, as if it symbolised acceptance of Steph's potential death. That way, when she opens it, it's clear she's run out of options and is putting herself through immense emotional pain.

[millernumber1]

Just read the new issue, and while pretty good as a silent comic, I kind of feel like the letter dragged down the issue. Not just because it was overly wordy over a series of panels breaking the immersion of the story as a silent comic, but because it made the rest of the issue leading up to it feel almost pointless.

It might have been better set up had we been shown Cass holding onto the letter throughout her investigation but refusing to open it, as if it symbolised acceptance of Steph's potential death. That way, when she opens it, it's clear she's run out of options and is putting herself through immense emotional pain.

I didn't get the sense of pointlessness at all, because what Cass was doing was clearly important to the greater situation, and the problems beyond just finding where Steph was being held.

[Konja7]

Honestly, Stephanie's letter is my favorite part in Batgirls #14. Cass was pretty cool in the issue, but the letter really moved me.

[millernumber1]

Honestly, Stephanie's letter is my favorite part in Batgirls #14. Cass was pretty cool in the issue, but the letter really moved me.

The whole issue feels like one of those issues that I think will last past this series, similar to Batman and Robin Eternal #13, Batman Eternal #24, Batgirl (2000) #28, the many excellent one shots in Steph's Batgirl run (#4, 14, 18, 22, etc). The letter, even though it did feel a tad like cheating for a silent issue, was really emotional, and the way Case drew and colored Cass and her body language was masterful. Just amazing, in my opinion.