Batgirls

[Frontier]

The sales of Barbara as Batgirl weren't good at the end. So, DC likely canceled her Batgirl comic, because they want the Batgirl brand in another direction (in Batgirls, they try to appeal a younger audience).

Not the first time they've tried it, although I feel like Babs Tarr's art had broader mass appeal.

[ayanestar]

I have to agree, I really don't like the art, and it's a shame because I do like Steph and Cass.

[Lal]

I also have to say it's a bit weird that 4 of the 6 1:25 ratio variants of the book are featuring Nightwing, 2 are featuring Tim, and all 6 are featuring Nightwing's dog when none of them ever actually appeared in the book.

[ZuLuLu]

Yeah. I've heard about this. Batgirls #1 was in 18 place, but Batgirls #2 is in 62 place. It's a strong fall.

We don't know the numbers, but it's already under Robin (which has more issues). So, this isn't good.

My only hope is that sales could increase, but this is pretty uncommon.

I say this as someone who is not a fan of this Batgirls series.

While it was a steep drop we don't know what the actual sales numbers are and right now the numbers are a little skewed because books that are strong sellers like Tec, Spider-Man, and Wolverine are having weekly events so they are pushing other books lower on the rankings than they would have been if these books were on their normal monthly schedule.

So these rankings have to be taken with a grain of salt because books ranked in the 60s can still be selling around 30k - 40k units.

[Lal]

I say this as someone who is not a fan of this Batgirls series.

While it was a steep drop we don't know what the actual sales numbers are and right now the numbers are a little skewed because books that are strong sellers like Tec, Spider-Man, and Wolverine are having weekly events so they are pushing other books lower on the rankings than they would have been if these books were on their normal monthly schedule.

So these rankings have to be taken with a grain of salt because books ranked in the 60s can still be selling around 30k - 40k units.

True, but usually sales keep declining after the 2nd and even 3rd issue until they stabilize.
So while these ranking should be taken with a grain of salt, they don't look very promising right now.

[Konja7]

True, but usually sales keep declining after the 2nd and even 3rd issue until they stabilize.
So while these ranking should be taken with a grain of salt, they don't look very promising right now.

Unfortunately, this is totally true. The common thing for comics is that sales will have strong drops in the first issues. So, an Issue #2 so low is a bad sign.

My hope is that the sales could grow. This isn't impossible (I've remember it happened with Naomi), but it's pretty unlikely.

[ohfellow]

Yeah. I've heard about this. Batgirls #1 was in 18 place, but Batgirls #2 is in 62 place. It's a strong fall.

We don't know the numbers, but it's already under Robin (which has more issues). So, this isn't good.

My only hope is that sales could increase, but this is pretty uncommon.

I have wondered how this book could succeed since *in general* it has no obvious audience other than fans supporting it because, while it is likely far from anything any one of us would have imagined it would be like, maybe it's better than nothing?

Kids don't read the regular DC line which is 13+ anyway, and the other Batman books are nothing like this. They're dark, darker, and even darker, and they are the only DC books that seem to be selling right now. Perhaps this is closer in spirit to Harley Quinn - two goofball comics with offbeat cartoony art that fits the tone.

I read HQ too but honestly hate it! I miss the heart of Sam Humphries and the clean expressive lines of Sami Basri. HQ is another book I'm "supporting" while wishing it was something else. Issue 12 ends the first arc and I was hoping for cancellation so we'd get a new take on it. (Otherwise it's an excellent jumping off point and if Derrick Chew ever stops drawing the variants it might be time for me to pull the plug.)

But of course I'd hope for a reboot of Batgirls.

[SixSpeedSamurai]

I really would like to read this title but I don’t like the art at all.
Same problem I have for Robins sadly.

Robins is not very good story or art. I'm still buying it because of Tim.

[ohfellow]

Robins is not very good story or art. I'm still buying it because of Tim.

I'm buying Robins. The script is worse than the art, in my opinion. Too many irrelevant digressions in plot points which I barely even read. I mean, who cares or even follows that a fan board for a Puppy Larceny video game created by Cormac Dodge *I GUESS* connects somehow to a box hidden in a stuffed puppy addressed to Lydia Arbuckle from Eldon Shaw..." I can re-read this 100 times and just can't really make any sense of the twistiness in that, but don't really want to try.

And all this weird stuff about no air conditioner in Dick's apartment - the whole story is probably Dick's bad dream in a hot room. Otherwise, who puts details, over and over, about air conditioning into a story? Things should happen in a story for a reason - it's not real life, where people are relatively boring and do talk about air conditioning. So until proven otherwise, I declare this book to be merely a nightmare. (Or, a drugged state.) Which would explain away this so-called "first Robin."

Sorry for the digression.

[Rac7d*]

I'm buying Robins. The script is worse than the art, in my opinion. Too many irrelevant digressions in plot points which I barely even read. I mean, who cares or even follows that a fan board for a Puppy Larceny video game created by Cormac Dodge *I GUESS* connects somehow to a box hidden in a stuffed puppy addressed to Lydia Arbuckle from Eldon Shaw..." I can re-read this 100 times and just can't really make any sense of the twistiness in that, but don't really want to try.

And all this weird stuff about no air conditioner in Dick's apartment - the whole story is probably Dick's bad dream in a hot room. Otherwise, who puts details, over and over, about air conditioning into a story? Things should happen in a story for a reason - it's not real life, where people are relatively boring and do talk about air conditioning. So until proven otherwise, I declare this book to be merely a nightmare. (Or, a drugged state.) Which would explain away this so-called "first Robin."

Sorry for the digression.

I wonder, why do people love the bat family adventures comic so much

[ZuLuLu]

I have wondered how this book could succeed since *in general* it has no obvious audience other than fans supporting it because, while it is likely far from anything any one of us would have imagined it would be like, maybe it's better than nothing?

Kids don't read the regular DC line which is 13+ anyway, and the other Batman books are nothing like this. They're dark, darker, and even darker, and they are the only DC books that seem to be selling right now. Perhaps this is closer in spirit to Harley Quinn - two goofball comics with offbeat cartoony art that fits the tone.

I think DC is hoping that even if a book like this does not have strong monthly direct sales they hope it does well in trades where it can be sold alongside other DC graphic novels that have been performing well among the YA audience.

[millernumber1]

Not the first time they've tried it, although I feel like Babs Tarr's art had broader mass appeal.

It does, as evidenced by the way DC tried to spin the Burnside flavor into a lot of similar books in the DCYou...which sadly failed really completely in sales.

I also have to say it's a bit weird that 4 of the 6 1:25 ratio variants of the book are featuring Nightwing, 2 are featuring Tim, and all 6 are featuring Nightwing's dog when none of them ever actually appeared in the book.

To me, all variants are more artist showcases than anything really to do with the interior of the book. See also every time Lee Bermejo does his weird canvas suit Batman on a variant cover.

I have wondered how this book could succeed since *in general* it has no obvious audience other than fans supporting it because, while it is likely far from anything any one of us would have imagined it would be like, maybe it's better than nothing?

Kids don't read the regular DC line which is 13+ anyway, and the other Batman books are nothing like this. They're dark, darker, and even darker, and they are the only DC books that seem to be selling right now. Perhaps this is closer in spirit to Harley Quinn - two goofball comics with offbeat cartoony art that fits the tone.

I read HQ too but honestly hate it! I miss the heart of Sam Humphries and the clean expressive lines of Sami Basri. HQ is another book I'm "supporting" while wishing it was something else. Issue 12 ends the first arc and I was hoping for cancellation so we'd get a new take on it. (Otherwise it's an excellent jumping off point and if Derrick Chew ever stops drawing the variants it might be time for me to pull the plug.)

But of course I'd hope for a reboot of Batgirls.

I have to wonder what is going on at DC, because it feels while their Batline in general isn't doing too badly, the rest of the books are not getting a relaunch boost from Infinite Frontier like Rebirth and the n52 gave them. Batgirls is really hurting from the indie/niche appeal of the creative team, but also from being launched 9 months after everything else spinning out of an event that I'm pretty sure was a jumping off point for a lot of readers because Tynion was leaving right after, and DC clearly didn't have a strong new direction to go in for the rest of the line.

I actually appreciate the current Phillips/Rossmo Harley Quinn, but I also really liked the Humphries/Basri stuff.

I hope whatever happens with Batgirls, it can find more of an audience so there's less sadness.

I'm buying Robins. The script is worse than the art, in my opinion. Too many irrelevant digressions in plot points which I barely even read. I mean, who cares or even follows that a fan board for a Puppy Larceny video game created by Cormac Dodge *I GUESS* connects somehow to a box hidden in a stuffed puppy addressed to Lydia Arbuckle from Eldon Shaw..." I can re-read this 100 times and just can't really make any sense of the twistiness in that, but don't really want to try.

And all this weird stuff about no air conditioner in Dick's apartment - the whole story is probably Dick's bad dream in a hot room. Otherwise, who puts details, over and over, about air conditioning into a story? Things should happen in a story for a reason - it's not real life, where people are relatively boring and do talk about air conditioning. So until proven otherwise, I declare this book to be merely a nightmare. (Or, a drugged state.) Which would explain away this so-called "first Robin."

Sorry for the digression.

Given the fact that apparently I like everything that is unpopular, I am liking Robins more and more. I do think the art is a bit weak and wobbly (and not on purpose, like Corona's is). But it's not as bad as many other artists for me, and I really like the way Seeley's dipping so deeply into history and potential for each Robin. I kind of wish he'd gotten a 12 issue series to develop all of the ideas he's introduced.

I wonder, why do people love the bat family adventures comic so much

Very cute art, a strong fanon characterization of nearly every character, sitcom style gags. I wish it had an ongoing storyline, though.

I think DC is hoping that even if a book like this does not have strong monthly direct sales they hope it does well in trades where it can be sold alongside other DC graphic novels that have been performing well among the YA audience.

I dunno if they're gonna get that, unless they get smart and launch it in semi-digest size through Scholastic. But of course their trade department is really bad, so that won't happen.

I think DC was hoping that the Wonder Woman run would lift the creative team. But while I am personally a fan of Cloonan's writing efforts in general, I think Gotham Academy is a pretty decent predictor of how the sales and appeal of the book were likely to go, and the more niche appeal of Corona's art hurts it a lot more than Karl Kerschle's art.

I do know there's people enjoying the book, but it definitely also has a lot of people loudly not enjoying it, which doesn't bode well. Trying not to get too depressed.

[failo.legendkiller]

Robins is not very good story or art. I'm still buying it because of Tim.

I've read first two issues and the story is poor.
I really wanted a Robins book, to explore the brotherhood and the dynamics between them. Nothing at all, stupid speeches and a manga alike style that I don't like.
Tim/Damian is a relationship that need to be explored. I would like a Robins book centered on the caharacterization, showing the pure family side leaving heroes affairs in the background.

To stay on topic, becasue of the art I stay off and I don't know how the story is. It's a pity cause I love Stpeh and Cass and normally I should be a supporter.

[ohfellow]

I have to wonder what is going on at DC, because it feels while their Batline in general isn't doing too badly, the rest of the books are not getting a relaunch boost from Infinite Frontier like Rebirth and the n52 gave them. Batgirls is really hurting from the indie/niche appeal of the creative team, but also from being launched 9 months after everything else spinning out of an event that I'm pretty sure was a jumping off point for a lot of readers because Tynion was leaving right after, and DC clearly didn't have a strong new direction to go in for the rest of the line.

You're absolutely right, they took soooo long to develop it.

I actually appreciate the current Phillips/Rossmo Harley Quinn, but I also really liked the Humphries/Basri stuff.

Once you get the Phillips rhythm you can map out the architecture of every story yourself.

Six pages of 1st person voiceover narration that doesn't pertain to the action in the panels. The narration is connected only to the story's theme.

Then 10-12 pages where the narration is dropped.

Then the essay restarts for the final couple of pages.

So it's one more book where first I read her "essay," then I go back and read the actual story, cause I don't like reading two disconnected things at once - and don't know why anyone would think we should.

I wish she'd just reserve one half of a page to type out her essay in full. That's the way I read it, and that's probably the best way for anyone to absorb it.

The most recent issue actually had narration boxes that connected to the panels in which they appeared, or if not were actually about the story and not merely thematically related, and I found that very refreshing, even though some people found the story weak.

I complained about it when Castellucci did a similar thing in Batgirl, but I wasn't aware of such a predictable rhythm.

As for Rossmo, he has a ton of skill. For instance, if you ignore the facial distortions he applies to everyone, he actually draws very expressive, emotive faces and body language. (As did Basri, for that matter. With Basri's Harley Quinn, you almost didn't need writing - her face said it all in every panel.) But in general Rossmo is also very controversial.

I think Gotham Academy is a pretty decent predictor of how the sales and appeal of the book were likely to go, and the more niche appeal of Corona's art hurts it a lot more than Karl Kerschle's art.

Are you thinking of the current Batman backup starring Maps? I am loving that!

But isn't Maps "in character" as this kid? Has she been written differently previously, or anywhere else? The difference, with Batgirls, is that these are not the same characters we have known or that are appearing elsewhere in Bat continuity. You could say the same for characters appearing in DC Super-Hero Girls or in others of DC's YA and Kids books, but that's what you'd expect. They are other worlds, other markets. You just don't expect it in an in-continuity Bat family book. DC treated the debut as it's connected to the DC universe, in that they put previews of it in their entire line.

(While they do *advertise* the YA and Kids books in their regular line, they don't print previews of them in the backs. The ads are probably aimed at readers who have young children. They also put previews of their YA and Kids books in the backs of OTHER YA/Kids books, and put out free excerpts on FCBD, and there are free excerpts of all those books on Comixology. All of that makes marketing sense.)

Maybe Batgirls was delayed because it took a long time to convince the bosses that this was the right treatment. And maybe the writing and art had to go through iterations before everyone agreed to proceed. (One of the critical editorial changes, for instance, was to get rid of Steph's thigh utility belt?! Ha.)

[millernumber1]

You're absolutely right, they took soooo long to develop it.

Once you get the Phillips rhythm you can map out the architecture of every story yourself.

Six pages of 1st person voiceover narration that doesn't pertain to the action in the panels. The narration is connected only to the story's theme.

Then 10-12 pages where the narration is dropped.

Then the essay restarts for the final couple of pages.

So it's one more book where first I read her "essay," then I go back and read the actual story, cause I don't like reading two disconnected things at once - and don't know why anyone would think we should.

I wish she'd just reserve one half of a page to type out her essay in full. That's the way I read it, and that's probably the best way for anyone to absorb it.

The most recent issue actually had narration boxes that connected to the panels in which they appeared, or if not were actually about the story and not merely thematically related, and I found that very refreshing, even though some people found the story weak.

I complained about it when Castellucci did a similar thing in Batgirl, but I wasn't aware of such a predictable rhythm.

As for Rossmo, he has a ton of skill. For instance, if you ignore the facial distortions he applies to everyone, he actually draws very expressive, emotive faces and body language. (As did Basri, for that matter. With Basri's Harley Quinn, you almost didn't need writing - her face said it all in every panel.) But in general Rossmo is also very controversial.

Are you thinking of the current Batman backup starring Maps? I am loving that!

But isn't Maps "in character" as this kid? Has she been written differently previously, or anywhere else? The difference, with Batgirls, is that these are not the same characters we have known or that are appearing elsewhere in Bat continuity. You could say the same for characters appearing in DC Super-Hero Girls or in others of DC's YA and Kids books, but that's what you'd expect. They are other worlds, other markets. You just don't expect it in an in-continuity Bat family book. DC treated the debut as it's connected to the DC universe, in that they put previews of it in their entire line.

(While they do *advertise* the YA and Kids books in their regular line, they don't print previews of them in the backs. The ads are probably aimed at readers who have young children. They also put previews of their YA and Kids books in the backs of OTHER YA/Kids books, and put out free excerpts on FCBD, and there are free excerpts of all those books on Comixology. All of that makes marketing sense.)

Maybe Batgirls was delayed because it took a long time to convince the bosses that this was the right treatment. And maybe the writing and art had to go through iterations before everyone agreed to proceed. (One of the critical editorial changes, for instance, was to get rid of Steph's thigh utility belt?! Ha.)

It really infuriates me that they had "plans" for a Batgirls series, but didn't even solidify the team until June of 2021. What was so special about Fear State that it had to spin out of that event? And they clearly had no problem with putting out too many titles at once - why not try to get the biggest bang for your buck. But no. Gotta delay delay delay without telling anyone. Ugh.

I think you're right. But I kinda like it. Probably because I also like Tom King and Brian Bendis, who often have mini essays or poems or something used in a structural fashion as well. To me, what I like about Phillips is that she manages to capture the anarchic energy of Harley without sacrificing the moral development Tynion built on her. Humphries also built some of that, but he was never directly canon - more winking at canon than ever really interacting with it. Could also be that I like her because I came from academia, and so that kind of thinking is pretty parallel to my own? Dunno.

Castellucci doesn't have any upsides for me compared with the upsides that Phillips has with voice and character.

Basri's Harley was SO expressive. I really wish he could get on a bigger book. I think he could really kill it on Superman or Wonder Woman. Though if he were on Batgirls, much as I do love Corona...I wouldn't complain at all either. I do like Rossmo as well, though I don't know why they are putting him on Harley - maybe he really wants to do it? They think that Harley's popularity will boost his smaller appeal? But I do like his stuff.

No, I'm talking about the original Gotham Academy, which also starred Maps . It was also co-written by Cloonan, and it also struggled to find an sales audience, I think, though the people who loved it loved it a lot. I am loving the backups in Batman a ton - way more than the main story for sure. I'd definitely say Maps is in character for the backups - being written by Karl Kershl, one of her co-creators, definitely helps. I'd say he's even better at writing her than Brendan Fletcher, considering my difficulties with the overall voicing when Fletcher took over primary scripting duties. I personally think that Steph, Cass, and Babs are within parameters, but Babs and Steph's parameters are REALLY wide because writers have not agreed very much on what their voices should sound like.

Boo, keep the thigh belt! It's iconic!

My personal theory for Batgirls is that they originally were going to go with Ayala, but both editorial and fan reaction to Ayala's Future State story was pretty negative, so they had to find something else. They futzed around thinking about Castellucci and Marguerite Bennett, both of whom got short stories with Babs, Steph, and Cass in similar setups for the Urban Legends series, but none of which were very good either. I do think that of the four pitches we've seen (Ayala, Castellucci, Bennett, and Cloonan/Conrad), the one we got is the best of the four. But I don't think any of them are widespread, mainstream pitches, and I think that the three that were rejected are outright awful and very poor quality (except for the art, which was generally very nice, despite Babs/Oracle's ridiculous off the shoulder Oracle outfit in Castellucci's story. I would not have minded seeing Sweeney Boo, Marguerite Sauvage, or Aneke on art. But again, I also like Corona. I do think that the others are much more mainstream, though Sweeney Boo is definitely close to Corona in being very cutesy and exaggerated.)

Anyway. I still think Batgirls is an enjoyable book, though of course, if the ending for the first arc doesn't wrap anything up and keeps the characters feeling like failures, I'll definitely start to feel like a lot of people on this board. But for now, I think it seems like a decent conflict that they're setting up to resolve.