Batgirls

[Frontier]

I wonder if many fans are really interested in such books. On paper it sounds like a slam dunk: take all 3 Batgirls and combine their fanbases into one. But if you are primarly Babs fan would you really buy this series? Especially when you can just buy Nightwing instead?

Particularly when Babs was more in the role of Oracle for a lot of the initial issues and supporting the other Batgirls.

[Factor]

I wonder if many fans are really interested in such books. On paper it sounds like a slam dunk: take all 3 Batgirls and combine their fanbases into one. But if you are primarly Babs fan would you really buy this series? Especially when you can just buy Nightwing instead?

I think in this case it’s this book’s problem that it didn’t focus as much on Babs. If most of the major stuff surrounding her happens in the book where she’s a supporting character, you’re doing something wrong.

[Godlike13]

It’s pretty bad when all three lead characters have sustained longer series. Even Steph, whose 24-issues run was prematurely cancelled due to the New 52.
Batgirl is one of DC’s most iconic titles, they should always have a Batgirl book running. The fact that a book starring all three past leads couldn’t reach 20 issues is pretty sad and says a lot about it failing to reach readers’ expectations.
Same for Robin. A Bat franchise without strong Batgirl and Robin books is doing something very wrong.

These cancellations are a lesson in reader expectations. Readers expected team Batgirl to be an easy sell, readers expected that Tim Drake can still draw like he did 20 years ago. And continually criticize DC for not delivering these things to them. Yet when DC does, well as you can see. This isn’t the same market it was even a decade ago, and what readers claim they want doesn’t mean general audiences will want it too.

Batgirl hasn’t really ever lit these charts on fire. Steph and Cass haven’t had an audience in years, and Babs needs more support if they want her to really sell again. Much like the case was with Nightwing.
Batgirl though is a brand that exists in a man’s world, yet it’s true worth extends beyond this market. Its hard to sell female lead comics in the this market. Beyond propping them with 20 variants. As we have seen with many iconic female titles 19 issues in this market isn’t that bad. The real goal extends beyond the floppy sales.

[The Cool Thatguy]

These cancellations are a lesson in reader expectations. Readers expected team Batgirl to be an easy sell, readers expected that Tim Drake can still draw like he did 20 years ago. And continually criticize DC for not delivering these things to them. Yet when DC does, well as you can see. This isn’t the same market it was even a decade ago, and what readers claim they want doesn’t mean general audiences will want it too.

Batgirl hasn’t really ever lit these charts on fire. Steph and Cass haven’t had an audience in years, and Babs needs more support if they want her to really sell again. Much like the case was with Nightwing.
Batgirl though is a brand that exists in a man’s world, yet it’s true worth extends beyond this market. Its hard to sell female lead comics in the this market. Beyond propping them with 20 variants. As we have seen with many iconic female titles 19 issues in this market isn’t that bad. The real goal extends beyond the floppy sales.

I agree to an extent, but I think on the flipside, the comic industry needs to realize how savvy readers have become.

To a very real extent, it doesn't matter how successful a book of a second stringer is. Not only will it receive little support from the Powers that Be, but we all know the book would be cancelled should the new Bat writer desire it.

Readers have no promise of a book's continuation, regardless of success, and we all know it.

[Factor]

These cancellations are a lesson in reader expectations. Readers expected team Batgirl to be an easy sell, readers expected that Tim Drake can still draw like he did 20 years ago. And continually criticize DC for not delivering these things to them. Yet when DC does, well as you can see. This isn’t the same market it was even a decade ago, and what readers claim they want doesn’t mean general audiences will want it too.

Batgirl hasn’t really ever lit these charts on fire. Steph and Cass haven’t had an audience in years, and Babs needs more support if they want her to really sell again. Much like the case was with Nightwing.
Batgirl though is a brand that exists in a man’s world, yet it’s true worth extends beyond this market. Its hard to sell female lead comics in the this market. Beyond propping them with 20 variants. As we have seen with many iconic female titles 19 issues in this market isn’t that bad. The real goal extends beyond the floppy sales.

I don't think fans were demanding a Tim book in the molds of what DC published. They did basically everything wrong with that one, so it's hard to see it as them delivering something fans were asking for.
Batgirls wasn't such an extreme case, but I think it's hard to talk about this book's cancellation and not mention that creatively it wasn't as exciting as it could have been. A higher quality is no guarantee of sales, but I don't think DC gave this concept their best shot and that's probably a big part of why it's ending so soon.

[Frontier]

I definitely think execution was partially an issue. Burnside had diminishing returns when the original creative team left and the freshness of the revamp fell off.

[MajorHoy]

I definitely think execution was partially an issue. Burnside had diminishing returns when the original creative team left and the freshness of the revamp fell off.

You have to wonder if things would have been different if Rebirth didn't come along and disrupt that book.

[Frontier]

You have to wonder if things would have been different if Rebirth didn't come along and disrupt that book.

I don't know if the creative team still had any stories left to tell (I mean, they immediately went creator owned after it ended).

Although I wonder if they'd done a "Batgirl Rebirth" in-line with other Rebirths instead of just continuing into Burnside how well the title would've done. Because I feel like we didn't get something close to that until the Scott run and that was short-lived.

[millernumber1]

I don't think fans were demanding a Tim book in the molds of what DC published. They did basically everything wrong with that one, so it's hard to see it as them delivering something fans were asking for.
Batgirls wasn't such an extreme case, but I think it's hard to talk about this book's cancellation and not mention that creatively it wasn't as exciting as it could have been. A higher quality is no guarantee of sales, but I don't think DC gave this concept their best shot and that's probably a big part of why it's ending so soon.

Setting aside the fact that I think Factor is a million percent right about the Tim Robin book, I think Batgirls is a case of fans who had sky high expectations and who've been kind of low key and sometimes high key fighting ever since the n52 started (and in the case of Cass and Steph fans, since 2009 when Steph became Batgirl and Cass quit). There was no one real audience for the book, but instead fragmented pieces of audiences and potential audiences.

Add to that while I don't think the execution was necessarily bad on the Cloonan/Conrad book, it definitely wasn't blow me out of my seat good either, and it was also nowhere close to ANY of the really popular Batgirl runs of the past that have fans wanting a nostalgic do-over hopeful. It's too melancholy and not tightly enough constructed for the BQM Steph fans, it's nowhere near dark and tragic enough for Puckett Cass fans, it's not as cheerful and cute as Burnside fans want, and it's not as PTSD-laden and gory as Simone fans want. It's an indie style book that revels in being quirky and off beat, but the Batgirl audience mostly wants a mainstream style like Nightwing usually gets.

Also, for anyone questioning whether quality is in any way connected to sales, look no further than Tini Howard's Catwoman run for confirmation that it is, in fact, not at all connected to sales. That book is buoyed by sexy variant cover schemes while the writing is beyond awful and the interior art is consistently incompetent.

Anyway. I still think that those who are crowing about the book's cancellation are wrong. As I've said, this book lasted longer than 9 other books launched in this timeframe. It's not a rousing success, but it's not a failure.

[Godlike13]

I don't think fans were demanding a Tim book in the molds of what DC published. They did basically everything wrong with that one, so it's hard to see it as them delivering something fans were asking for.
Batgirls wasn't such an extreme case, but I think it's hard to talk about this book's cancellation and not mention that creatively it wasn't as exciting as it could have been. A higher quality is no guarantee of sales, but I don't think DC gave this concept their best shot and that's probably a big part of why it's ending so soon.

DC is desperate to find a new mold with Tim after everything they tried had been met with crickets. The tried to make him the next Nightwing with the New 52 TT, as readers expected his character to be able to do what Dick did. They then they tried making him a future Batman, as readers expected him to be the next Bruce. They then even put him back in the Robin suit and brought him and his friends back to their traditional form as readers claim they wanted. And all of it was met with apathy or deemed by his ‘fans’ not good enough. As if Tim’s character’s value and outside interest is deserving of meeting every whim or demand. Even now, what they are currently doing isn’t completely without fan inspiration.

As someone who wasn’t expecting to like the book, and thought was a bad idea at the start, the Batgirl book was solid. It’s style and tone served to remain open to the general market they are looking for with the brand, while the concept and story reflected what the characters fan bases said they wanted.
I get it might be easier to swallow the idea that the book didn’t last longer because it just wasn’t good enough, rather then acknowledge that these characters appeal might just not be that strong. But the reality is characters more often then not don’t get ideal or perfect books. A characters worth is measured by their ability to draw even with out ideal circumstances. That’s what it is to have general appeal.

[Aahz]

Batgirl hasn’t really ever lit these charts on fire. Steph and Cass haven’t had an audience in years, and Babs needs more support if they want her to really sell again. Much like the case was with Nightwing.
Batgirl though is a brand that exists in a man’s world, yet it’s true worth extends beyond this market. Its hard to sell female lead comics in the this market. Beyond propping them with 20 variants. As we have seen with many iconic female titles 19 issues in this market isn’t that bad. The real goal extends beyond the floppy sales.

Before that Babaras Batgirl Series went from Rebirth till infinite frontier, with only one relaunch due to rebirth.
So I think that it should be possible to do a book with all three Batgirls that last longer than 19 issues.

But I also think that they need writers and artists who in a style more similar to the pre Flashpoint series.

Something like "Batgirls" would proably fit better in their YA OGN line.

[Godlike13]

Rebirth Batgirls sales weren’t that great though. But the Batgirl book became an entry book for female creators that they were able to supplement with events. They’d have to really up the investment to get Batgirl to be a real consistent seller again in the current comic market. It’s not guaranteed anymore. This is bigger then just a quality issue.

[HsssH]

As I've said, this book lasted longer than 9 other books launched in this timeframe. It's not a rousing success, but it's not a failure.

That is true, but this is mostly about expectations. People expect Batgirl and Robin books to do okay numbers and have longer runs.

To a very real extent, it doesn't matter how successful a book of a second stringer is. Not only will it receive little support from the Powers that Be, but we all know the book would be cancelled should the new Bat writer desire it.

Readers have no promise of a book's continuation, regardless of success, and we all know it.

Yeah, Damian is good example here. All his books got cancelled due to outside factors.

[Aahz]

Rebirth Batgirls sales weren’t that great though.

It still lastet for 50 issues, even if they changed the tone form Brunside back to more mature after some time.

But the Batgirl book became an entry book for female creators

That was of course also a problem, especially when iirc only one of them was good.

[Felipe Silveira]

Rebirth Batgirl sold for a long time almost as much as Nightwing, at times more, and always more than Red Hood. While Nightwing got new creative teams to pull him out of the hole, and Red Hood got chances on Urban Legends and Task Force Z, Barbara became a supporting actor.