When is the defeat of a character good writing?

[Doom'nGloom]

There is a pattern I sometimes see on the internet that admittedly I too am a part of. When someones favorite character gets defeated by another character with similar power levels sometimes the fans post scans of a one time feat of the character with decades of history which never got mentioned again and argue that the defeat is bad writing. On the other hand if the character goes against someone clearly more powerful sometimes they say their favorite is used as cannon fodder and it's again bad writing. So my question is when would you consider the defeat of your favorite character good writing. In what scenario would you say the writer did a good job where your favorite character hits the ground?

[Celtic1967]

I think a physical defeat is better when complimented by a mental/psychological defeat. Born Again is a good example for Daredevil. Kingpin destroys Matt's life before actually beating him in a physical fight.

[CaptCleghorn]

Sometimes we see obvious differences in levels like in DD 7 with Namor and Daredevil. There are few who would consider that bad writing. There's also throwing in luck, cheating, as well as some unknown (to your favorite) factor as a surprise. Personally, I haven't been happy with Peter David's handling of Ben Grimm and Ben getting his ass handed to him by Grey Hulk (in a sneak attack) and in X-Factor by the dude with the swords. But generally, comic book fights are like sports games. In the NFL, there's a phrase that goes "On any given Sunday..." indicating anyone could win despite being and overwhelming underdog. It's often better to assume so and so is having a bad day than to bitch about an outcome clearly designed to fit the story development.

[PyroFN]

Mostly if it makes sense. As Jean fan, I will use Jean in her teen years as an example.

Say Teen Jean loses to Xavier Jr. That is fine because at this point, she is still a student and learning her powers. It makes sense a more experienced psi could defeat her.



Now, let’s contrast to Inhumans vs X-Men, where we get this crap.



Jean is a teenager at this point, so she is liable to lapses in judgement. That said, the writer had to completely forgo her training that she had gone under for extended periods of time, forgetting the fact that she has telekinesis and has reacted to things like this



in her time as an X-Man to be taken out by a rock. This after an extended fight between Karnak and Fantomex. Under these circumstances, it is not okay for a character to lose.

[Doom'nGloom]

Sometimes we see obvious differences in levels like in DD 7 with Namor and Daredevil. There are few who would consider that bad writing. There's also throwing in luck, cheating, as well as some unknown (to your favorite) factor as a surprise. Personally, I haven't been happy with Peter David's handling of Ben Grimm and Ben getting his ass handed to him by Grey Hulk (in a sneak attack) and in X-Factor by the dude with the swords. But generally, comic book fights are like sports games. In the NFL, there's a phrase that goes "On any given Sunday..." indicating anyone could win despite being and overwhelming underdog. It's often better to assume so and so is having a bad day than to bitch about an outcome clearly designed to fit the story development.

That's a really good advice though it's hard to brush off a story where your favorite gets beaten just for the plot. Most of the time I don't mind Doom getting beaten as it usually takes multiple heroes to take him down or he self sabotages due to his character flaws which makes him more complex. That said I don't like the story where he owes Luke Cage money and they fight because of that. It's just stupid. I actually like Squirrel Girl beating him which is the whole gag with her character and is clearly meant to be a joke. I actually would like to see Squirrel Girl beating every major villain in marvel.

[Iron Maiden]

That's a really good advice though it's hard to brush off a story where your favorite gets beaten just for the plot. Most of the time I don't mind Doom getting beaten as it usually takes multiple heroes to take him down or he self sabotages due to his character flaws which makes him more complex. That said I don't like the story where he owes Luke Cage money and they fight because of that. It's just stupid. I actually like Squirrel Girl beating him which is the whole gag with her character and is clearly meant to be a joke. I actually would like to see Squirrel Girl beating every major villain in marvel.

I'm not a fan of that Luke Cage story either. Can we say "force field?"? Because that is a part of Doom' armor since he learned he had to have something to counter Sue's powers. And yet Doom just stands there getting hit by Luke Cage. That is just dumb but then Steve Englehart has never been one of my favorite writers. Another character that suffered his abuse is Pietro. Veteran CBR columnist Brian Cronin even dedicated a couple of his columns to how Englehart decided Pietro was some kind of pyschopath while other writers would ignore his version, undoubtedly deliberately

[CaptCleghorn]

That's a really good advice though it's hard to brush off a story where your favorite gets beaten just for the plot. Most of the time I don't mind Doom getting beaten as it usually takes multiple heroes to take him down or he self sabotages due to his character flaws which makes him more complex. That said I don't like the story where he owes Luke Cage money and they fight because of that. It's just stupid. I actually like Squirrel Girl beating him which is the whole gag with her character and is clearly meant to be a joke. I actually would like to see Squirrel Girl beating every major villain in marvel.

Please realize I am not saying this is an easy path to take all the time. The idea of Luke Cage breaking into Doom's armor is ridiculous. It was a crap fight designed, probably, to get fans to pick up Luke's book because it featured Doom. I'd like to see a scene where it's shown Doom faked it with holographic illusions to wonder why this lightweight thought he could attack him. Of course, we also have Scott Lang and Doom in Fraction's FF as well. Comics (both Marvel and their Distinguished Competition) have many scenes like this which make little sense. For occasions where the scene is too difficult to take, please put the book down before you act. Trust me, I and many others (Hi, Iron Maiden) feel your pain.

[Doom'nGloom]

Please realize I am not saying this is an easy path to take all the time. The idea of Luke Cage breaking into Doom's armor is ridiculous. It was a crap fight designed, probably, to get fans to pick up Luke's book because it featured Doom. I'd like to see a scene where it's shown Doom faked it with holographic illusions to wonder why this lightweight thought he could attack him. Of course, we also have Scott Lang and Doom in Fraction's FF as well. Comics (both Marvel and their Distinguished Competition) have many scenes like this which make little sense. For occasions where the scene is too difficult to take, please put the book down before you act. Trust me, I and many others (Hi, Iron Maiden) feel your pain.

That's something I struggle with. It's not like I start throwing fists around after a bad story but I stay angry for quite a while. I'm still salty about the pointless retcons to FF's origin and Franklin's mutant status in Slott's run.

[K7P5V]

Definitely, my choice would be Spidey trouncing Firelord!!!



I'll always love the DeFalco run, but even I had to give this match the side-eye.

[scribbleMind]

This is outside of a lot the whole VS thread angles depicted in this thread, but I think a character should be defeated when it serves the character better than a victory would. A hero vs villain conflict shouldn't just be two people punching each other, it should mean something for the hero involved, be it facing their past, their fears, their pride, their inadequacies, their losses, their dreams, testing their ideals, their resilience, their connections to people, or opening the character up to new ideas. I think when you take the surface level man vs villain away, there should be a story of man facing something intangible. So, if the defeat of a hero helps enrichen that man vs "intangible thing" / man vs self story, or results in the character reconsidering his own beliefs or personality traits, then I think the hero losing is not necessarily the wrong choice. I'm not going to say it is the right choice, because a story can go so many different ways, but I would consider the defeat as right of a choice as the hero's victory. Personally, skill and power level comes after that. I know that may seem like a bit of a wide berth, but it's really how you tell the tale. "Mole Man beat Sentry" sounds absurd, but a good writer would come up with a way Mole Man's victory is believable, entertaining, and meaningful. I do think believably is important, I'm not really a fan of ends justifies the means story telling, but we're talking about an entire comic book universe with an uncountable number of interesting toys and win conditions. Anyone can beat anyone, and I think anyone should be able to beat anyone because that makes things less predictable, but writers should put forth the effort for it to make sense. Even if it doesn't always make sense, I will give writers a pass if they put forth the effort. I think The Thing's win against the Hulk was controversial, but there was an effort to make that win believable. He had to obliterate his arm just knock Hulk out for a little while. I appreciate that, so I'm not mad at it.

An example that depicts much of what I mentioned before is when Krillin beat Gohan in Dragon Ball Super. It was the battle of the family men. Krillin has no business beating Gohan. Gohan is significantly stronger, but the story's gain from the loss was two-fold. The fight was used as a means to show that Krillin isn't worthless and return some of the crafty trickster elements that Krillin was known for in Dragon Ball that he sort of lost in Dragon Ball Z. For Gohan, it was a way for him to come face to face with the fact that he is far from tip top shape mentally and physically. Not only that, but it made him reassess his priorities as someone who largely stopped training to provide for his family. Under the conditions of the fight, Krillin's victory was not unbelievable. It's a good example of when a stronger character should be defeated by a weaker one.

[Spiderfan001]

Definitely, my choice would be Spidey trouncing Firelord!!!



I'll always love the DeFalco run, but even I had to give this match the side-eye.

Again it's clear PIS but the writing was good(not scaling, there's a difference), it's not a bad character defeat.Spidey was on the verge of loosing throughout, it was clear he had no chance.Just wish they pulled a Juggernaut style ending with Spidey outsmarting him, a physical win is far-fetched at best(although Spider-man is much much stronger than the 10-15 tons people think, he clearly isn't near herald level).

Spider-sense and speed means he can dodge his attacks in close combat, marvel writers themselves have said he has faster combat speed than the hulk and he jumps around Hulk and others like red-hulk with ease pretty often, but he can't damage Firelord much if at all.

[Spiderfan001]

Most of the times a bad character defeat is
1)For the plot, in which case write a "gizmo" or something into the story
2)Wanking, which the writers need to find a way to sell to us.
Like smart characters building something, magic characters using a special artifact, etc.
3)People just get mad when their fav looses. Like wolverine and Cap may be your fav but they get their a*s handed to them by Spider-man
Same way Spider-man gets his a*s handed to him by firelord

[Spiderfan001]

Mostly if it makes sense. As Jean fan, I will use Jean in her teen years as an example.

Say Teen Jean loses to Xavier Jr. That is fine because at this point, she is still a student and learning her powers. It makes sense a more experienced psi could defeat her.



Now, let’s contrast to Inhumans vs X-Men, where we get this crap.



Jean is a teenager at this point, so she is liable to lapses in judgement. That said, the writer had to completely forgo her training that she had gone under for extended periods of time, forgetting the fact that she has telekinesis and has reacted to things like this



in her time as an X-Man to be taken out by a rock. This after an extended fight between Karnak and Fantomex. Under these circumstances, it is not okay for a character to lose.

Karnak has insane speed, slicing bullets with his hand after fired levels fast.
Also Jean would be tired after holding him down via TP for so long IIRC, there have been many circumstances of Jean being unfairly defeated but I don't think this is one of them.

[dkrook]

That's a really good advice though it's hard to brush off a story where your favorite gets beaten just for the plot. Most of the time I don't mind Doom getting beaten as it usually takes multiple heroes to take him down or he self sabotages due to his character flaws which makes him more complex. That said I don't like the story where he owes Luke Cage money and they fight because of that. It's just stupid. I actually like Squirrel Girl beating him which is the whole gag with her character and is clearly meant to be a joke. I actually would like to see Squirrel Girl beating every major villain in marvel.

I think both were gag scenes, technically neither should have had a chance in hell as is. I don't get why your upset over Luke Cage, but dance around how squirrel girl is just as ridiculous.

[Spiderfan001]

I think both were gag scenes, technically neither should have had a chance in hell as is. I don't get why your upset over Luke Cage, but dance around how squirrel girl is just as ridiculous.

It's her gimmick, we know it's parody like.
Luke Cage fight was meant to be serious.