When is the defeat of a character good writing?

[The Cool Thatguy]

I prefer logical exploitation of weaknesses and strength, but in a pinch, I'd take string thematic tones.

A Bannerless Hulk beating the crap out of Gladiator wasn't the most well written fight, but when witnessed by a small child, it becomes an excellent story, IMO.

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

Definitely, my choice would be Spidey trouncing Firelord!!!



I'll always love the DeFalco run, but even I had to give this match the side-eye.

NOT me! All for it!

Again it's clear PIS

Powerful!
Impactful!
Sensational!

[Panic]

The Spider-Man vs Firelord fight is a good example of something where I can see what the writer was going for, but it just doesn't work. No matter how I look at it it just doesn't make any sense, and I say that as a life-long Spider-Man fan.

If something pulls you out of the story and damages your feeling of the reality of the fictional universe, that's not good.

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

The Amazing Spider-Man

pounds

The Incorrigible ******* Man

[JackDaw]

If something pulls you out of the story and damages your feeling of the reality of the fictional universe, that's not good.

That’s a neat way of putting it.

The fight has to be credible given the respective characters power sets.

Spider-Man shouldn’t be shown as punching out the Hulk…or doing anything more than delaying defeat (or running away) in a purely physical fight.

But showing Peter using a scientific device to win…given time to prepare…might well be okay.

Basically one test is if a fair minded fan of the defeated character feels “yes, my favourite might well have been beaten that way”.

[Iron Maiden]

Please realize I am not saying this is an easy path to take all the time. The idea of Luke Cage breaking into Doom's armor is ridiculous. It was a crap fight designed, probably, to get fans to pick up Luke's book because it featured Doom. I'd like to see a scene where it's shown Doom faked it with holographic illusions to wonder why this lightweight thought he could attack him. Of course, we also have Scott Lang and Doom in Fraction's FF as well. Comics (both Marvel and their Distinguished Competition) have many scenes like this which make little sense. For occasions where the scene is too difficult to take, please put the book down before you act. Trust me, I and many others (Hi, Iron Maiden) feel your pain.

Oh dear, you had to remind me about that Fraction/Allred story. I've put it out of my mind. But I will let you know something that ticked me off. Someone here, I forget who, tipped me off back then that artist Mike Allred was bragging about the beatdown on social media (IIRC it was Twitter). He was gloating little too much IMO.

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

No way! Spider-Man trailer defeats every marvel character but good!

[The_Last_Czarnian]

The latest death of The Sentry in King in Black made absolutely no sense to me. That still smarts.

[From The Shadows]

Actually despite the cover DD beat Spidey ultimately.

[Crimz]

Good - when it leads to character development and makes sense

Bad- when it makes no sense and done just to show how strong one character is at the detriment of the loser. This often happens with Galactus.

But it's even these have exceptions. Sometimes even when it leads to character development and makes sense, it's not a good loss.

[K7P5V]

Actually despite the cover DD beat Spidey ultimately.

OMG! No matter what, this will always be my favorite period in Spidey history!

[cranger]

I don't know how to answer the question other than to say most often after reading enough pages of the writing it probably won't be a surprise that the 'defeat' is just as poorly done.

[From The Shadows]

OMG! No matter what, this will always be my favorite period in Spidey history!

Probably my fave Spidey story after Kravens Last Hunt. (And when MJ reveals her real past to Peter).

[marshal88]

doom.jpg

even in defeat, doom is defiant

[JudicatorPrime]

The Spider-Man vs Firelord fight is a good example of something where I can see what the writer was going for, but it just doesn't work. No matter how I look at it it just doesn't make any sense, and I say that as a life-long Spider-Man fan.

If something pulls you out of the story and damages your feeling of the reality of the fictional universe, that's not good.

I tend to agree with this.

In a situation where they are clearly outmatched in a one on one confrontation, I would prefer it if a hero either takes the loss, flees, or seeks help. There's no shame in showing that your favorite character has reasonable limitations. If Peter loses that battle and limps away with 3rd degree burns, broken bones, partial blindness and radiation poisoning, no one would fault him for being defeated. Peter has more powerful friends in the superhero community that would have definitely tracked down Firelord and made him regret his very existence.

But no, the writer's mind was made up that Peter was going to win that battle in a ridiculously far-fetched manner no matter what. When that happens, no one wins. Not the protagonist, not the antagonist, and definitely not the reader. It just turns into PIS and bad precedent.

But this sort of thing happens all of the time in comics.