When is the defeat of a character good writing?

[Doom'nGloom]

There is a pattern I sometimes see on the internet that admittedly I too am a part of. When someones favorite character gets defeated by another character with similar power levels sometimes the fans post scans of a one time feat of the character with decades of history which never got mentioned again and argue that the defeat is bad writing. On the other hand if the character goes against someone clearly more powerful sometimes they say their favorite is used as cannon fodder and it's again bad writing. So my question is when would you consider the defeat of your favorite character good writing. In what scenario would you say the writer did a good job where your favorite character hits the ground?

[Celtic1967]

I think a physical defeat is better when complimented by a mental/psychological defeat. Born Again is a good example for Daredevil. Kingpin destroys Matt's life before actually beating him in a physical fight.

[CaptCleghorn]

Sometimes we see obvious differences in levels like in DD 7 with Namor and Daredevil. There are few who would consider that bad writing. There's also throwing in luck, cheating, as well as some unknown (to your favorite) factor as a surprise. Personally, I haven't been happy with Peter David's handling of Ben Grimm and Ben getting his ass handed to him by Grey Hulk (in a sneak attack) and in X-Factor by the dude with the swords. But generally, comic book fights are like sports games. In the NFL, there's a phrase that goes "On any given Sunday..." indicating anyone could win despite being and overwhelming underdog. It's often better to assume so and so is having a bad day than to bitch about an outcome clearly designed to fit the story development.

[PyroFN]

Mostly if it makes sense. As Jean fan, I will use Jean in her teen years as an example.

Say Teen Jean loses to Xavier Jr. That is fine because at this point, she is still a student and learning her powers. It makes sense a more experienced psi could defeat her.



Now, let’s contrast to Inhumans vs X-Men, where we get this crap.



Jean is a teenager at this point, so she is liable to lapses in judgement. That said, the writer had to completely forgo her training that she had gone under for extended periods of time, forgetting the fact that she has telekinesis and has reacted to things like this



in her time as an X-Man to be taken out by a rock. This after an extended fight between Karnak and Fantomex. Under these circumstances, it is not okay for a character to lose.

[Spiderfan001]

Mostly if it makes sense. As Jean fan, I will use Jean in her teen years as an example.

Say Teen Jean loses to Xavier Jr. That is fine because at this point, she is still a student and learning her powers. It makes sense a more experienced psi could defeat her.



Now, let’s contrast to Inhumans vs X-Men, where we get this crap.



Jean is a teenager at this point, so she is liable to lapses in judgement. That said, the writer had to completely forgo her training that she had gone under for extended periods of time, forgetting the fact that she has telekinesis and has reacted to things like this



in her time as an X-Man to be taken out by a rock. This after an extended fight between Karnak and Fantomex. Under these circumstances, it is not okay for a character to lose.

Karnak has insane speed, slicing bullets with his hand after fired levels fast.
Also Jean would be tired after holding him down via TP for so long IIRC, there have been many circumstances of Jean being unfairly defeated but I don't think this is one of them.

[Doom'nGloom]

Sometimes we see obvious differences in levels like in DD 7 with Namor and Daredevil. There are few who would consider that bad writing. There's also throwing in luck, cheating, as well as some unknown (to your favorite) factor as a surprise. Personally, I haven't been happy with Peter David's handling of Ben Grimm and Ben getting his ass handed to him by Grey Hulk (in a sneak attack) and in X-Factor by the dude with the swords. But generally, comic book fights are like sports games. In the NFL, there's a phrase that goes "On any given Sunday..." indicating anyone could win despite being and overwhelming underdog. It's often better to assume so and so is having a bad day than to bitch about an outcome clearly designed to fit the story development.

That's a really good advice though it's hard to brush off a story where your favorite gets beaten just for the plot. Most of the time I don't mind Doom getting beaten as it usually takes multiple heroes to take him down or he self sabotages due to his character flaws which makes him more complex. That said I don't like the story where he owes Luke Cage money and they fight because of that. It's just stupid. I actually like Squirrel Girl beating him which is the whole gag with her character and is clearly meant to be a joke. I actually would like to see Squirrel Girl beating every major villain in marvel.

[Iron Maiden]

That's a really good advice though it's hard to brush off a story where your favorite gets beaten just for the plot. Most of the time I don't mind Doom getting beaten as it usually takes multiple heroes to take him down or he self sabotages due to his character flaws which makes him more complex. That said I don't like the story where he owes Luke Cage money and they fight because of that. It's just stupid. I actually like Squirrel Girl beating him which is the whole gag with her character and is clearly meant to be a joke. I actually would like to see Squirrel Girl beating every major villain in marvel.

I'm not a fan of that Luke Cage story either. Can we say "force field?"? Because that is a part of Doom' armor since he learned he had to have something to counter Sue's powers. And yet Doom just stands there getting hit by Luke Cage. That is just dumb but then Steve Englehart has never been one of my favorite writers. Another character that suffered his abuse is Pietro. Veteran CBR columnist Brian Cronin even dedicated a couple of his columns to how Englehart decided Pietro was some kind of pyschopath while other writers would ignore his version, undoubtedly deliberately

[CaptCleghorn]

That's a really good advice though it's hard to brush off a story where your favorite gets beaten just for the plot. Most of the time I don't mind Doom getting beaten as it usually takes multiple heroes to take him down or he self sabotages due to his character flaws which makes him more complex. That said I don't like the story where he owes Luke Cage money and they fight because of that. It's just stupid. I actually like Squirrel Girl beating him which is the whole gag with her character and is clearly meant to be a joke. I actually would like to see Squirrel Girl beating every major villain in marvel.

Please realize I am not saying this is an easy path to take all the time. The idea of Luke Cage breaking into Doom's armor is ridiculous. It was a crap fight designed, probably, to get fans to pick up Luke's book because it featured Doom. I'd like to see a scene where it's shown Doom faked it with holographic illusions to wonder why this lightweight thought he could attack him. Of course, we also have Scott Lang and Doom in Fraction's FF as well. Comics (both Marvel and their Distinguished Competition) have many scenes like this which make little sense. For occasions where the scene is too difficult to take, please put the book down before you act. Trust me, I and many others (Hi, Iron Maiden) feel your pain.

[Doom'nGloom]

Please realize I am not saying this is an easy path to take all the time. The idea of Luke Cage breaking into Doom's armor is ridiculous. It was a crap fight designed, probably, to get fans to pick up Luke's book because it featured Doom. I'd like to see a scene where it's shown Doom faked it with holographic illusions to wonder why this lightweight thought he could attack him. Of course, we also have Scott Lang and Doom in Fraction's FF as well. Comics (both Marvel and their Distinguished Competition) have many scenes like this which make little sense. For occasions where the scene is too difficult to take, please put the book down before you act. Trust me, I and many others (Hi, Iron Maiden) feel your pain.

That's something I struggle with. It's not like I start throwing fists around after a bad story but I stay angry for quite a while. I'm still salty about the pointless retcons to FF's origin and Franklin's mutant status in Slott's run.

[Iron Maiden]

Please realize I am not saying this is an easy path to take all the time. The idea of Luke Cage breaking into Doom's armor is ridiculous. It was a crap fight designed, probably, to get fans to pick up Luke's book because it featured Doom. I'd like to see a scene where it's shown Doom faked it with holographic illusions to wonder why this lightweight thought he could attack him. Of course, we also have Scott Lang and Doom in Fraction's FF as well. Comics (both Marvel and their Distinguished Competition) have many scenes like this which make little sense. For occasions where the scene is too difficult to take, please put the book down before you act. Trust me, I and many others (Hi, Iron Maiden) feel your pain.

Oh dear, you had to remind me about that Fraction/Allred story. I've put it out of my mind. But I will let you know something that ticked me off. Someone here, I forget who, tipped me off back then that artist Mike Allred was bragging about the beatdown on social media (IIRC it was Twitter). He was gloating little too much IMO.

[dkrook]

That's a really good advice though it's hard to brush off a story where your favorite gets beaten just for the plot. Most of the time I don't mind Doom getting beaten as it usually takes multiple heroes to take him down or he self sabotages due to his character flaws which makes him more complex. That said I don't like the story where he owes Luke Cage money and they fight because of that. It's just stupid. I actually like Squirrel Girl beating him which is the whole gag with her character and is clearly meant to be a joke. I actually would like to see Squirrel Girl beating every major villain in marvel.

I think both were gag scenes, technically neither should have had a chance in hell as is. I don't get why your upset over Luke Cage, but dance around how squirrel girl is just as ridiculous.

[Spiderfan001]

I think both were gag scenes, technically neither should have had a chance in hell as is. I don't get why your upset over Luke Cage, but dance around how squirrel girl is just as ridiculous.

It's her gimmick, we know it's parody like.
Luke Cage fight was meant to be serious.

[Mike_Murdock]

I think a physical defeat is better when complimented by a mental/psychological defeat. Born Again is a good example for Daredevil. Kingpin destroys Matt's life before actually beating him in a physical fight.

I think Nocenti's end to the Typhoid Mary arc where Daredevil battles a gauntlet of villains works really well as well.