At this point, "New 52" isn't that bad at all.

[leapyear baby]

You can't have a timeline where Clark was with both at the same time.
.

They occurred independently in two different timelines. see above exhibit. there was no "one timeline" before death metal. The current timeline does not extend backwards from death metal in one single line. next.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Or, youre just uncomfortable with there being multiple separate timelines that didn't join until Death Metal. Nothings reverted; nothings discarded. Thats lore right now. That bothers you, and youre trying to revise history. Its not gonna happen. DC isn't selling it.

This is definitely a personal crusade for you. Youve made it clear you want there to be only be one timeline, but haven't touched on why. Can you explain why?

Uh, because a consistent timeline is a foundational aspect of storytelling and consistent character portrayal? It's not really something you can not have. That's storytelling 101.

And actually, DC is selling it. You just can't seem to see that. Again, I like what DC is currently putting out. This new "aggregation" of the timelines seems to be heavily skewed toward the Pre-FP DCU. And again, that's not to say that the entirety of the New 52 is gone, but...for most of the characters, they're pretty much where they were before Flashpoint.

I mean, really look at the books that are coming out now. Ask yourself: how much of it is truly informed by New 52 concepts and characters? You'll see a bit, but...

Again I like what I'm currently getting from DC. Do you?

[leapyear baby]

Uh, because a consistent timeline is a foundational aspect of storytelling and consistent character portrayal? It's not really something you can not have. That's storytelling 101.

And actually, DC is selling it.

It is a consistent timeline. Youre just not thinking broadly enough to encapsulate it. Youre still searching for DC to establish one timeline before death metal that you want to hold as canon but will never exist because DC is done the whole idea of it.

As for what DC is selling: it is timeline where all stories happened, all history is set, and multiple pasts are referenced. Im glad you like it. Meanwhile, DC is not doing retcons or reversions. There will not be a single timeline taking place before death metal.

Maybe this gentleman can help you understand:

[Greta]

I mean, really look at the books that are coming out now. Ask yourself: how much of it is truly informed by New 52 concepts and characters? You'll see a bit, but...

There is a decades long period of time of preceding the New 52 with the volume of content and number of characters to match. They are steadily reintroducing that content, and in proportion its much shorter time span, New52/rebirth probably still has way more influence on current things than pre52.

I'm glad you like what DC is doing now with keeping all histories intact. And remember:

[BohemiaDrinker]

As fun as this discussion has been to observe: you guys do realize that there's no way the current status quo is long term, right?

At the time of Death Metal DC continuity was at it's messiest state ever. There was no way to both move forward with the line and establish a single, simple timeline: there was just too much cosmic stuff in the recent past and the planning alone would be a severe undertaking. So they chose the current cop-out, they will move along referencing what they want and ignoring what they want until comes a time when they can fix it again, this time with all the pieces already in their correct places.

I know that now it seems bigger than it ever was (and probably is), but it's not like it's the first time we see a period of fluid continuity at DC.

[HsssH]

Yeah, Infinite Frontier's timeline is just a placeholder till they figure out things. For example, first S: SoK issue rewrote Jon's birth. Due to that we can say that whole Convergence thing and parts of post-Reborn storyline were dropped by DC and are not in continuity anymore.

Things like Superman dating WW? Still in continuity regardless if it makes sense or not. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point DC is going to rewrite entire thing as Superman dating WW briefly before finally settling with Lois.

[Alpha]

I know that now it seems bigger than it ever was (and probably is), but it's not like it's the first time we see a period of fluid continuity at DC.

I don't think so actually. Lately DC has been making a lot of decisions that I think will stay long term, and I honestly think this "everything happened" is something they will stick with, because it fixes a lot of things people have complained about over the years. Things like should Clark have met the legion of superheroes as a teenager? Did Pa Kent die before Clark left Smallville, was Lex Luthor a friend of Clark back in Smallville? All these things have always been argued back and forth by fans, and the best solution is embracing the idea that the characters can remember all the reboots, and move forward.

[SteelisLean]

Superman from New 52 did date Diana but he died. The other Superman was in a different universe when it happened. He came to New 52s universe in Rebirth and took over for New 52 Clark. He was already married from the other timeline.

[iron chimp]

As I understand it they hit the reset button with nu52 to create a jumping on point for new readers then just kept pressing the button again and again until we've ended up with something even more convoluted than we started with.

[Menacer]

By "main timeline" I think he still means “the timeline from before" that is either unmerged or with various recent events retconned out. Death Metal is where I think he is stuck. I could be wrong and maybe he's gotten it but he can say whether or not that's true.

You are correct in your statements about references to the past. What will be referenced going forward will depend on the story. They may very well just avoid certain variations like the Clark+Diana variation, but even if do they write about it, we will have an “in-universe” or “in-continuity” explanation for why it’s still in play. You just have to expand your scope of the continuity to one that is wider than it was before Death Metal. Do that and it will still make perfect sense. I personally believe this is where some people are having a problem. They’re stuck in a one-earth timeline mentality and haven’t had that “a-ha” moment yet.

Most other things don’t even contradict each other though, so I don’t expect them to be avoided. In one story arc, they may reference Jason Todd’s past with Roy and Kory. In another, maybe it will be Artemis and Bizarro. Right now they are still in the beginning stages and still busy reintroducing characters like Obsidian and his sister.


You’re getting closer: they were all “parallel timelines” prior to Death Metal, including pre52, and all were incomplete. The “main timeline” which came out of Death metal is composed of all of them.

Yes I agree youve properly explained it. This is how I understand it too just typing all these messages out on my mobile its hard to hammer it all out so clearly.

But yes this is the Omniverse.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It is a consistent timeline. Youre just not thinking broadly enough to encapsulate it. Youre still searching for DC to establish one timeline before death metal that you want to hold as canon but will never exist because DC is done the whole idea of it.

As for what DC is selling: it is timeline where all stories happened, all history is set, and multiple pasts are referenced. Im glad you like it. Meanwhile, DC is not doing retcons or reversions. There will not be a single timeline taking place before death metal.

Maybe this gentleman can help you understand:

There is a decades long period of time of preceding the New 52 with the volume of content and number of characters to match. They are steadily reintroducing that content, and in proportion its much shorter time span, New52/rebirth probably still has way more influence on current things than pre52.

I'm glad you like what DC is doing now with keeping all histories intact. And remember:

Remembering an alternate timeline doesn't mean that that timeline actually "happened" to that character, so to say. You could have memories of an alternate timeline where you're the King of England, but still in this timeline, never actually been the King of England. But whatever. The discussion has gone in circles, so I think it's best to just agree to disagree. The "everything counts" tagline is just a useful line for DC to just employ the continuity for each character that's most popular with the fanbase (which, in 99% of the cases, is the Pre-Flashpoint continuity). It also appeases fans who liked the New 52 even if they are sneakily trying to bury much of the New 52 and writers/artists don't necessarily reference it very much going forward.

And, given what we've seen from the current line, that seems to be the case.

[RobinGA]

The problem with it all happened is that at some point it creates its own problems.
The timeline branches in all of these various directions, with all of these logistical
problems that creates. For the moment they seem to be enjoying all of the
possibilities of the multiverse.

But the people who make up DC Comics ultimately have us at their mercy.
All approaches, ultimately change, nothing is ever permanent. New approaches,
new ways of thinking as they try to spin ways to creatively improve, or cough
improve sales.

Now the problem from my perspective, probably a minority of one here, is that
you never know what bright idea they will embrace next. It is rather maddening
wondering what bright idea they will think of next. Like waiting for the anvil to land
on your head.

My own view is that everything spiraled out of control with CIE. That was the big mistake,
but that probably takes us down a rabbit hole most people don't want to go down.

But here is the other thing. The individuals we love from the comics can have lots
of things done to them, or be ignored, but they all continue to have meaning. It makes
them ultimate survivors of the twists and turns of the writers and editors at DC. Now,
if they will only give us a JSA book.

[leapyear baby]

Remembering an alternate timeline doesn't mean that that timeline actually "happened" to that character, so to say.

There has not been a hard reboot since New 52. The timeline rolling out of Death Metal is still continuing off of it with the others rolled in at Death metal. There aren't "false memories" but if there were, it would actually be pre52 mostly that are just "imagined." Look all over the web outside of this site. almost everyone universally recognizes that the continuity in play is the one that spawned out of new52. Its not a question, even.

(which, in 99% of the cases, is the Pre-Flashpoint continuity).

Judging just by this thread alone, it looks more like youre in the 1%. A cursory look outside the site reinforces that. The pre52 is popular only among a certain section of people who are sorta fading out as newer fans are attracted. According to the fan reviews weve seen in this thread, new52s popularity remains stronger than the pre52.

[ducklord]

Look all over the web outside of this site. almost everyone universally recognizes that the continuity in play is the one that spawned out of new52. Its not a question, even.

I'm not sure everyone is on the same page with regards to the word "continuity" here

[InfamousBG]

Judging just by this thread alone, it looks more like youre in the 1%. A cursory look outside the site reinforces that. The pre52 is popular only among a certain section of people who are sorta fading out as newer fans are attracted. According to the fan reviews weve seen in this thread, new52s popularity remains stronger than the pre52.

Sorta fading out???!!! I swear people just make $Hit up here.

You are just misinformed and wrong...sorry...but maybe im not. Or am I just fading away like the rest of the "Pre52 fans" LOL!!!