At this point, "New 52" isn't that bad at all.

[Felipe Silveira]

Looking back and finding good things is easy, but it's completely different from having followed along at the time and seeing your favorite character ignored or taking it in a horrible way.

[Yohei72]

Honestly this seems to be people in general. Not just comics fans.

Some how people develop their identity around things they like... and even more so things they dislike or hate...

People love to hate stuff... bit of a conundrum

Sure, it's a general human tendency, but from my observations, comics fans and other niche pop culture fans, broadly speaking, are more prone to it than your average human.

[godisawesome]

New 52 was actually mostly good to great, with some really bad titles.

What caused it to fail was incompetence and inconsistency. Nobody knew what stories had happened or hadn't happened. Some well liked characters had disappeared or were changed so much as to be unrecognizable (a big no-no for established characters like Wally West). And DC seemed to have a major inability to employ A+ talent across the board, making the bad titles really bad; don't get me wrong, New 52 definitely had A+ talent, but it also had F- talent. Also editors were too heavy handed on some books, leading to the title just totally sucking.

But it brought it a lot of people back to comics. It wasn't a failure.

Agreed.

There are some specific decisions made that I think were bad choices because they were happening to “healthy” properties, when we could observe that the Green Lantern books and about 3/4s of the Batman books were regarded as too healthy to unnecessarily change; for instance, I still don’t think any positive purpose was served by abandoning the Titans’s history or retconning and/or limbo-ing all their connected characters…

…But to tie to your larger point, some of those arbitrary mistakes were made *after* the initial, broadly successful launch, when the inconsistency and incompetence crept in - and often, the incompetence and inconsistency had been present before the New 52, and simply swallowed up the good New 52 elements afterwards.

Didio was not wrong to think that opening up continuity to new writers to try and use a fresh start where it was useful - but he was wrong to continue to think that he could dictate formula across the board, make arbitrary decisions that weren’t actually supported by audience data, or that his selection of editors were the best he could get (particularly Berganza in the Superman books.)

And all those mistakes were his old mistakes, just repeated on the New 52.

The decisions that lead to unnecessarily exiling Wally, Cass, Steph, and the Titans from continuity in the New 52 came form the same place that lead to a musical chairs approach to the Flash in the previous decade, the previous screwing over of Cass and Steph, and the previous use of the Titans as cannon fodder. The decisions that led to trying to force a divisive status quo on “present” Superman that also drove greater writers away from the books were reflected by the same type of stuff before the reboot. All Didio’s irrational paranoia of legacy characters, tendency to drive off solid talent just as often as he courted it to DC, and even his fixation on darker and edgier concepts, were present before and after the New 52 - and then again with Rebirth.

It’s just that, perhaps with the New 52’s freshness, seeing him swiftly wreck it again when there was no old continuity to fall back on and when he was actively discouraging it (see: forbidding Stephanie Brown from appearing even in non-continuity stuff for a while) just kind of poisoned that well a bit.

[blunt_eastwood]

Yes because now it's as if characters like Jon Kent and Duke Thomas existed during Post Crisis events

Thank you.

Yes, because there was still several years' worth of comics that introduced new characters and concepts into the DCU. However, the current timeline is still a lot more like the Pre-Flashpoint timeline than the New 52 timeline. So, we can't in all good faith call it "New 52 plus" because if anything, the New 52 elements would probably be the "plus" not the main part.

Thank you. Your replies have actually been the most helpful for me to make sense of the current continuity.

What makes it confusing is that the in-story reasons are so convoluted.

If I'm understanding things correctly, the post-crisis continuity ended with Flashpoint. That story told us that the pre-crisis continuity got merged with two others by Pandora to avert some undefined threat that never appeared. That then created the New 52 continuity.

Then 6 years later in Doomsday Clock we're told that this version of the New 52 isn't the "real" version, but actually one with an altered timeline caused by Dr. Manhattan. Then in that story he undoes his changes and we finally get the unaltered New 52.

Why the hell didn't we just start with that? What was the point of having Pandora do what she did if this threat was never going to be realized? Why did we need to have Flashpoint and Doomsday Clock to get us to where we are now? Why did we then have another major continuity focused event right after it with Death Metal? Why didn't DC just reboot things with Final Crisis? Wouldn't that have made much more sense? It would have added some weight to that story and would have made a nice bookend to the old continuity.

[Saithor]

Thank you.



Thank you. Your replies have actually been the most helpful for me to make sense of the current continuity.

What makes it confusing is that the in-story reasons are so convoluted.

If I'm understanding things correctly, the post-crisis continuity ended with Flashpoint. That story told us that the pre-crisis continuity got merged with two others by Pandora to avert some undefined threat that never appeared. That then created the New 52 continuity.

Then 6 years later in Doomsday Clock we're told that this version of the New 52 isn't the "real" version, but actually one with an altered timeline caused by Dr. Manhattan. Then in that story he undoes his changes and we finally get the unaltered New 52.

Why the hell didn't we just start with that? What was the point of having Pandora do what she did if this threat was never going to be realized? Why did we need to have Flashpoint and Doomsday Clock to get us to where we are now? Why did we then have another major continuity focused event right after it with Death Metal? Why didn't DC just reboot things with Final Crisis? Wouldn't that have made much more sense? It would have added some weight to that story and would have made a nice bookend to the old continuity.

The sudden changes make a lot more sense when put in the context of terrible editorial at DC and a sudden decision to reverse course over fan outrage and the fact that their new line was not as well-received as they (or people in this thread) liked. So they decided to start trying to reverse course. But because this is DC editorial, even that had repeated starts, stops, and repeats until finally we got Death Metal to restore the Pre-New 52 events as having actually occured during it. And even that ended up being messier than intended because of the cancellation of 5gs, Future State, and so on. Honestly it's amazing things are going as well as they have been since continuity has been in a flux ever since the start of New 52.

[blunt_eastwood]

The sudden changes make a lot more sense when put in the context of terrible editorial at DC and a sudden decision to reverse course over fan outrage and the fact that their new line was not as well-received as they (or people in this thread) liked. So they decided to start trying to reverse course. But because this is DC editorial, even that had repeated starts, stops, and repeats until finally we got Death Metal to restore the Pre-New 52 events as having actually occured during it. And even that ended up being messier than intended because of the cancellation of 5gs, Future State, and so on. Honestly it's amazing things are going as well as they have been since continuity has been in a flux ever since the start of New 52.

I know things were constantly changing behind the scenes, but would it have been so hard to at least keep the story changes logical and simple? Even if they wanted to change directions at a frequent pace, they could at least keep the stories simple and straightforward and do that.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

If I'm understanding things correctly, the post-crisis continuity ended with Flashpoint. That story told us that the pre-crisis continuity got merged with two others by Pandora to avert some undefined threat that never appeared. That then created the New 52 continuity.

Then 6 years later in Doomsday Clock we're told that this version of the New 52 isn't the "real" version, but actually one with an altered timeline caused by Dr. Manhattan. Then in that story he undoes his changes and we finally get the unaltered New 52.

Apologies, but no. You're still misinterpreting.

The New 52 continuity, in any shape or form, does not exist anymore. The New 52 was the "altered" state of things. We are now back to the Pre-Flashpoint continuity and canon for the DC Universe more or less, with some minor tweaks.

[Saithor]

Albeit some are arguing that the fact that some elements of the New 52, a few characters introduced during it (The most prominient off the top of my head being Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz), and it technically having been in the past of the DCU means that it's still cannon, although it's technically cannon the same way the Golden Age/Earth 2 Superman is cannon. He existed, the stuff he did happen, very little impact to current Clark Kent in the grand scheme of things technically. Essentially, it is cannon, but the branding no longer exists, it's impact is minimal, and it's relation to the current DCU is not very tight.

[blunt_eastwood]

Apologies, but no. You're still misinterpreting.

The New 52 continuity, in any shape or form, does not exist anymore. The New 52 was the "altered" state of things. We are now back to the Pre-Flashpoint continuity and canon for the DC Universe more or less, with some minor tweaks.

I don't think I'm misunderstanding. I get that the New 52 continuity as was presented between Flashpoint and Doomsday Clock no longer exists. That was the altered "new" continuity. Now that no longer exists and we are left with the unaltered version of the continuity which is like a mix of the New 52 and Post-Crisis continuities.

[Restingvoice]

I know things were constantly changing behind the scenes, but would it have been so hard to at least keep the story changes logical and simple? Even if they wanted to change directions at a frequent pace, they could at least keep the stories simple and straightforward and do that.

You can't keep a story straightforward and simple when there are multiple heads behind the scenes having different ideas. Johns wanted to do this, Didio wanted that, things happened, so Snyder did this, and then Williamson do that, and then there's Warner Brothers. They work together, but there's still hierarchy of order and ego. After the previous person left, the next person do what they want, if they're allowed. Remember, they're all fanboys and creators, and they're all have their own interpretation on what they think it's best... if allowed, and not everyone wants to go back and revisit a story from 10 years ago.

Snyder, for example, spent so much time rebuilding Batman during New 52 and become a best seller. Even if he's in charge of fixing continuity, even if he likes previous continuity, he's not just gonna pick up after Doomsday Clock saying, oh yeah, my whole run and Zero Year didn't happen. So he went with "everything matters" during Death Metal.

Johns, even knowing New 52 has mistakes, he's also in charge of that, he wrote the main overarching story, so when rebuilding DCU in Rebirth, he's not erasing everything that came before. I don't think, even if Doomsday Clock comes true the way it was originally meant to be, he wanted to erase Darkseid War and all that.

Also, even if say, they write the story as if New 52 stories happened with different characters, like Batgirl of Burnside is Stephanie Brown, not Barbara Gordon, they'd have to announce that and pick things where that left off, and that will sound confusing for New 52 only readers.

Speaking of Barbara Gordon, there's also WB. During New 52, they've really marketed Barbara as Batgirl, in the animated universe, in DC superhero girls, that Burnside costume got a lot of use, and they still use it for the upcoming Batgirl film. They'll not allow the comic branch to reverse that and make it Stephanie.

[blunt_eastwood]

You can't keep a story straightforward and simple when there are multiple heads behind the scenes having different ideas. Johns wanted to do this, Didio wanted that, things happened, so Snyder did this, and then Williamson do that, and then there's Warner Brothers. They work together, but there's still hierarchy of order and ego. After the previous person left, the next person do what they want, if they're allowed. Remember, they're all fanboys and creators, and they're all have their own interpretation on what they think it's best... if allowed, and not everyone wants to go back and revisit a story from 10 years ago.

Snyder, for example, spent so much time rebuilding Batman during New 52 and become a best seller. Even if he's in charge of fixing continuity, even if he likes previous continuity, he's not just gonna pick up after Doomsday Clock saying, oh yeah, my whole run and Zero Year didn't happen. So he went with "everything matters" during Death Metal.

Johns, even knowing New 52 has mistakes, he's also in charge of that, he wrote the main overarching story, so when rebuilding DCU in Rebirth, he's not erasing everything that came before. I don't think, even if Doomsday Clock comes true the way it was originally meant to be, he wanted to erase Darkseid War and all that.

Also, even if say, they write the story as if New 52 stories happened with different characters, like Batgirl of Burnside is Stephanie Brown, not Barbara Gordon, they'd have to announce that and pick things where that left off, and that will sound confusing for New 52 only readers.

Speaking of Barbara Gordon, there's also WB. During New 52, they've really marketed Barbara as Batgirl, in the animated universe, in DC superhero girls, that Burnside costume got a lot of use, and they still use it for the upcoming Batgirl film. They'll not allow the comic branch to reverse that and make it Stephanie.

I understand all of this, but there's got to be a single person in charge to actually steer the ship. Someone like Johns or Snyder can certainly come up with the creative ideas, but the person who's actually in charge, presumably Didio at the time, needs to put their foot down and keep things consistent.

For instance, I don't really care if Johns didn't want to write out Darkseid War when writing the overarching story of Doomsday Clock. If they are going to write a new continuity, then that story should get written out, the same way Grant Morrison had to shoe horn his run into the New 52 at the end.

IMO it seems that the real problem is that there is no strong management steering this ship. It's a just a bunch of creators who all want to do whatever they want.

[Restingvoice]

I understand all of this, but there's got to be a single person in charge to actually steer the ship. Someone like Johns or Snyder can certainly come up with the creative ideas, but the person who's actually in charge, presumably Didio at the time, needs to put their foot down and keep things consistent.

For instance, I don't really care if Johns didn't want to write out Darkseid War when writing the overarching story of Doomsday Clock. If they are going to write a new continuity, then that story should get written out, the same way Grant Morrison had to shoe horn his run into the New 52 at the end.

IMO it seems that the real problem is that there is no strong management steering this ship. It's a just a bunch of creators who all want to do whatever they want.

They did have someone at the top steering the ship, but that doesn't mean that someone knows best for everything.

Didio gave in and let Johns fixed New 52 by handing him the ship of Rebirth because sales are down and he realized he made a mistake. He tried to direct New 52 to the point of micromanagement and it didn't work.

Then stuffs happened and Johns decided to just become a writer after Doomsday Clock. So it's back to Didio again. The problem is Didio and Johns have different understanding on what makes DC works. Immediately after he's back in the rein, for example, he gets rid of Dick and Wally, even though Johns wanted Wally to be the hope of DCU.

Didio and Johns were at the top. They both don't want to just erase New 52, and on other things they have some opposing views, so when authority change, so is the direction of the whole universe.

[Menacer]

I always find people cant comprehend how important new52 was and also cant cope with the fact it 100% matters and is why we have rebirth, metal, death metal, Infinite Frontier etc... it did revitalize dc.


Think of it this way.

Does Back to the Future matter?

Does back to the future really erase Marty's past?

Does back to the future work as a movie if you only view the final few minutes when Marty finds his whole family transformed?

Back to the future works cause it tells a story of transformation.

New 52 and Rebirth tell a similar story of transformation.

You cant have modern dc with out new52. Yes it truely is a merging of new52 and Preflashpoint history.

And thats totally okay. And the stories to get to that point and what brought us here all stem from the over all history. Flashpoint, new52 and rebirth etc.

But people cant seem to make it work in there brain cause they want to suggest new52 doesnt matter.

Well if new52 doesnt matter then Marty's story arc and entire film doesn't matter either.

And that makes no sense

[TheRay]

When was it ever?

[ducklord]

I always find people cant comprehend how important new52 was and also cant cope with the fact it 100% matters and is why we have rebirth, metal, death metal, Infinite Frontier etc... it did revitalize dc.


Think of it this way.

Does Back to the Future matter?

Does back to the future really erase Marty's past?

Does back to the future work as a movie if you only view the final few minutes when Marty finds his whole family transformed?

Back to the future works cause it tells a story of transformation.

New 52 and Rebirth tell a similar story of transformation.

You cant have modern dc with out new52. Yes it truely is a merging of new52 and Preflashpoint history.

And thats totally okay. And the stories to get to that point and what brought us here all stem from the over all history. Flashpoint, new52 and rebirth etc.

But people cant seem to make it work in there brain cause they want to suggest new52 doesnt matter.

Well if new52 doesnt matter then Marty's story arc and entire film doesn't matter either.

And that makes no sense

Speaking as a guy with some first-hand experience with ye olde BTTF franchise*, congratulations on a post that made me take a step back and think for a second.

I believe that there is a little *too* much fanboy wishcasting in the whole "The New 52 is gone! No it isn't!" discussion around here (and elsewhere). In a shared universe in which continuity tends pile on top of itself like crap in your teenager's room, only getting cleared out when the room becomes impassable, and thus inevitably retaining lingering piles of previous messes**, one can never truly say that one continuity epoch or another is truly gone forever. It's *always* a hodgepodge, no matter how it's labelled.

And while the BTTF comparison is clever, it doesn't quite work, mostly because the DCU isn't full of Martys and Docs, whose cumulative experiences are knowingly informed by the fact that they've traveled to all kinds of alternate timelines and seen some serious *******. It is instead, by and large, a universe full of Georges and Lorraines - characters whose entire histories have been whipped back and forth willy-nilly, but don't haven't then faintest glimmer of an idea that this has happened. It's entertaining for us when freaky echoes of their previous existences reverberate through their present incarnations, but it's typically not important to the story.

It all counts - to us. But not to the characters.

* My bad writing almost killed Christopher Lloyd - true story.
** My kids are slobs.
*** Typically when they hit 88 mph.