At this point, "New 52" isn't that bad at all.

[leapyear baby]

Again, a lot of the time, user reviews tend to be untrustworthy because these review aggregator sites don't verify whether the users have even consumed the media in question. Remember when users tried to review bomb Captain Marvel over their dislike of Brie Larson? Or, even more recently, when fans of the Snyder Cut tried to do the same with James Gunn's Suicide Squad?
With the actual critic reviews, I can actually go and read the review and verify that the reviewer actually consumed the movie or book or comic that they're talking about because they give details that wouldn't be known to someone who hadn't seen/read the content.

Are you saying that your impression was that fans were positively rating new52 works and are now review bombing the stuff that came afterward so it just has lower user ratings all around? If so that theory's pretty ridiculous on its face. but more than that, when stuff gets review bombed, it isn’t just because fans hate the content (altho they certainly may) but its also because they hate the company’s decisions… in either case this is a poor rationalization and doesn't speak well for the current state of affairs. Also goodreads which was the other site they used is far from a troll site/bomb site. Its actually a very clean site where people tend to use their real names and write thoughtful reviews and without pay incentive.

What I do put stock in is the discourse and for those who were around at the time, they'll remember that the discourse around the New 52 was veeeeeeeeeery negative

Its clear from this thread that many don't share your perception and broad statements based on your recollection of what you believe others think are of greatly limited use. Its a logical fallacy and you can't even quantify it. The breadth of one's memory is confined to the limits of your personal experiences and exposure resulting in an inherent selection bias. Your perception of the past ( and this is true for everyone) is influenced by an unknown number of other biases to varying degrees and by the passage of time. It is best to acknowledge this.

Having said that, I have a significantly different recollection too. Mines is of people expressing acceptance and excitement of the New52, especially by my daughters friends. In online single issue discussions, people were positive. The exceptions were when sometimes…occasionally… Id get a link to a ridiculously formal sounding essay against the New52 written on a fan site by an obvious male. their argument was centered on personal grief over loss of legacy, betrayal by DC, and other maudlin nonsense. In many cases I would discover they had been obsessively copying and pasting the same exact thing to multiple boards all over the net (this is something only males do, for some reason) raising the question that they were an autistic adult. Nothing wrong with that, but the behavior is hella weird. They often looked and communicated like this individual (remove the two spaces)-- https:// disqus .com/by/disqus_rh3NZL0u9m/

That last sentence is satire but the rest is all true . Circling to my earlier paragraph its clear from this thread that people have varying memories of the tone of the general discourse, with yours as alien to others as mine to yours. Your memory of the discourse in influenced solely by the discourse you were exposed to, the people you consorted with, the articles you read, and that is true of everyone. People have a natural tendency to associate with/get information from people/sources who confirm their views. this phenomenon is real, it applies to almost everyone, and its demonstrated in the way news media outlets retain and attract viewership (conservatives watch conservative news channels, surprised?). The idea of online echo chambers is also very real and people rarely acknowledge their participation in them. Sometimes they don’t even know.

Im familiar with the creators beef of new 52.. it was writers mainly, not artists, and the issues were business-ended.. stemming from attrition, the DC HQ move to LA in the middle of it, and feeling of being overstretched/overassigned. expectations set too high. Their complaints did not stem from an inherent dislike of the reboot. Gail simone did a piece on it you should read. The writers were actually proud of their work, and some artists had an almost opposite experience feeling they were given more freedom than they had previously been allowed.

We kind of know why DC started the New 52. It was, largely, the brainchild of Dan Didio. There is a highly documented record of Dan Didio not liking the fact that characters had aged in the DC Universe. He believed that characters like Nightwing and Wally West posed major issues to the DC lore and even said that at one point "Dick Grayson [is] gonna be older than Bruce Wayne, because Bruce Wayne doesn't age." He even wanted to kill off Nightwing during Infinite Crisis, and it was only by Geoff Johns's intervention that Nightwing wasn't killed off, but at the cost of Superboy instead being killed.
Didio had been known to be pushing for a line-wide reboot as far back as 2005, I believe. The only thing that was stopping him from getting his way back then was Paul Levitz who was decidedly against it. It was only after Levitz left the position of co-Publisher (or was it EiC, I forget), that Didio was able to push through rushed plans for a reboot. It's even been documented that Geoff Johns never intended Flashpoint to be a reboot of the DC Universe. Didio intervened at the last minute and made it such.So, yeah, we know why DC decided to do the New 52. It was because of certain editorial elements that have since left the company, at least for the most part.

Its unfortunate you took time to write this because while of interest to some, it is mostly extraneous information of the reboots inspiration and motivation that speaks nothing to why the organization’s estimation of the most popular course of action has become sounder now, during IF, than at the time at which the new 52 was conceived. Is it your theory that it is because of changes in leadership and the people mentioned above are not in control?

[Menacer]

We past rebirth long ago. So it's post Infinite Frontier now.

Superman reborn in the rebirth era erased out much of the NU 52 Superman stuff and replaced it with most of the pre flashpoint stuff.

Anything that can't fit in goes in hypertime.

This statement comes off meaningless and appears as though you don't really understand the conversation.

20210821_134759.jpg


Another example would be court of owls. A new 52 creation. Still part of the continuity. ???

[D.Z]

This statement comes off meaningless and appears as though you don't really understand the conversation.

20210821_134759.jpg20210821_134759.jpg

Sounds like you are rude and can't handle being corrected. So it isn't meanginless considering the company agrees with me. They also further changed up stuff.

Rebirth is over and done with. They will not have multiple pasts in one universe or stuff contradicting itself.

[Menacer]

Sounds like you are rude and can't handle being corrected. So it isn't meanginless considering the company agrees with me. They also further changed up stuff.

Rebirth is over and done with. They will not have multiple pasts in one universe or stuff contradicting itself.

Dude you again have no idea what Im even talking about.

Its a MERGED reality and this is factually what DC stands by. I even posted articles.

Also the OMNIVERSE is exactly about Infinite realities hence the name Infinite Frontier

Like seriously bro Im not trying to be rude but you are ignoring all the info available to us.

[leapyear baby]

Sounds like you are rude and can't handle being corrected. So it isn't meanginless considering the company agrees with me. They also further changed up stuff.

Rebirth is over and done with. They will not have multiple pasts in one universe or stuff contradicting itself.

You seem unnecessarily prickly. The company agrees with you on what?

Rebirth isn't erased either. There are still multiple pasts. If not, then explain jessica cruz has a power ring if the new 52 is the past.

[leapyear baby]

Dude you again have no idea what Im even talking about.

Its a MERGED reality and this is factually what DC stands by. I even posted articles.

Also the OMNIVERSE is exactly about Infinite realities hence the name Infinite Frontier

Like seriously bro Im not trying to be rude but you are ignoring all the info available to us.

I don't get why theyre so adamant in believing new 52 and rebirth were erased when they weren't. Its not even a question... they just want so much to believe its true but I don't even know why it bothers them that the two eras still happened. What does it matter to them so much for, seriously?

[Menacer]

I don't get why theyre so adamant in believing new 52 and rebirth were erased when they weren't. Its not even a question... they just want so much to believe its true but I don't even know why it bothers them that the two eras still happened. What does it matter to them so much for, seriously?

Thank you. Yah I got nothing against no one. And definitely dont want to be rude. Like comics are, our hobbies. So this should be fun.

But DCs continuity makes no sense if you start chopping years and years of stories out.

[Menacer]

Also Geoff Johns New52 Justice League story about Shazam's origin spawned the movie and is the current basis for the character. Again another reminate of New52 in modern comics like Teen Titans Academy and Shazam #1-4.... current monthly.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Are you saying that your impression was that fans were positively rating new52 works and are now review bombing the stuff that came afterward so it just has lower user ratings all around?[/B] If so that theory's pretty ridiculous on its face. but more than that, when stuff gets review bombed, it isn’t just because fans hate the content (altho they certainly may) but its also because they hate the company’s decisions… in either case this is a poor rationalization and doesn't speak well for the current state of affairs. Also goodreads which was the other site they used is far from a troll site/bomb site. Its actually a very clean site where people tend to use their real names and write thoughtful reviews and without pay incentive.

No, of course not. What I am saying is that user reviews are untrustworthy and tend not to actually line up with how the fanbase actually sees something. That's it. Supposing that I said anything else is just putting words in my mouth.

Its clear from this thread that many don't share your perception and broad statements based on your recollection of what you believe others think are of greatly limited use. Its a logical fallacy and you can't even quantify it. The breadth of one's memory is confined to the limits of your personal experiences and exposure resulting in an inherent selection bias. Your perception of the past ( and this is true for everyone) is influenced by an unknown number of other biases to varying degrees and by the passage of time. It is best to acknowledge this.

It's also clear that many people do share my opinion. However, I'm not talking about this specific site. I'm talking about sites like, ya know, Twitter and Facebook and social media, which capture a wider array of the fanbase. And, uh, there were countless Twitter and FB rants about the New 52. How many people came out saying that DC's treatment of Wally West, Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, etc was inexcusable?? A lot of a lot.

In top of that, major sites like IGN posted official articles about how the New 52 had messed with characters and continuity and how nothing made sense in the DCU anymore.

So...it wasn't just a few fans on a forum website.

Having said that, I have a significantly different recollection too. Mines is of people expressing acceptance and excitement of the New52, especially by my daughters friends. In online single issue discussions, people were positive. The exceptions were when sometimes…occasionally… Id get a link to a ridiculously formal sounding essay against the New52 written on a fan site by an obvious male. their argument was centered on personal grief over loss of legacy, betrayal by DC, and other maudlin nonsense. In many cases I would discover they had been obsessively copying and pasting the same exact thing to multiple boards all over the net (this is something only males do, for some reason) raising the question that they were an autistic adult.

I don't think it's constructive to disparage people or comment on their mental capacity just because we disagree with them.

Also, dismissing what these people were discontent with as "maudlin nonsense" is also not constructive. In many cases, they were legitimate concerns that the then-current leadership at DC had it out for several fan-favorite characters and also that the DC roster of characters became significantly less diverse post-Flashpoint.

[QUOTEIm familiar with the creators beef of new 52.. it was writers mainly, not artists, and the issues were business-ended.. stemming from attrition, the DC HQ move to LA in the middle of it, and feeling of being overstretched/overassigned. expectations set too high. Their complaints did not stem from an inherent dislike of the reboot. Gail simone did a piece on it you should read. The writers were actually proud of their work, and some artists had an almost opposite experience feeling they were given more freedom than they had previously been allowed.

Actually, as Gail Simone herself pointed out, a lot of the creatives were frustrated because of the fact that the editorial gave them mixed messages over what was still canon and what was not and kept changing their minds last minute in terms of creative directions. That's not just business; that's directly tied to the creative direction that the company was heading in. I mean, that was all shown in the link I posted.

DC had no idea what they actually wanted the New 52 universe to look like. And yeah, that is directly tied to the reboot itself because that means that they didn't actually PLAN the reboot very much, which says a lot.

I mean, if you're going to entirely relaunch the universe of one of the two biggest publishers in comics, which is home to several of comics' most iconic characters, you would think that they'd at least try to know what they were doing with it...

Its unfortunate you took time to write this because while of interest to some, it is mostly extraneous information of the reboots inspiration and motivation that speaks nothing to why the organization’s estimation of the most popular course of action has become sounder now, during IF, than at the time at which the new 52 was conceived. Is it your theory that it is because of changes in leadership and the people mentioned above are not in control?

You do know that Dan Didio was terminated from DC last year, right? And he was also kinda the only actual cheerleader for the New 52 left at DC.

And again, it's pretty clear if you've actually read Infinite Frontier to tell that DC is trying to show that the New 52 is over. The main characters of the main event currently ongoing at DC openly talk about the timeline had been messed with and that they were trying to fight against any residual influence left by that tampering. On top of that, they're almost all characters who were erased post-Flashpoint, so...

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

This statement comes off meaningless and appears as though you don't really understand the conversation.

20210821_134759.jpg


Another example would be court of owls. A new 52 creation. Still part of the continuity. ???

Sorry, but you can't actually think that the "merger" that happened with Superman was 50/50 right?

It's pretty obvious to anyone reading that the "new" continuity that emerged post-Rebirth was 95% Pre-FP and like 2% New 52 and then like 3% stuff from Rebirth itself. Notice how almost all of the moments shown in the actual page you're posting are taken from the Pre-Flashpoint timeline.

So, yeah, there's some New 52 stuff, the stuff that was worth keeping––the Court of Owls, the new Shazam family, Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz––but the vast majority of it has been...flushed away.

[Menacer]

Sorry, but you can't actually think that the "merger" that happened with Superman was 50/50 right?

It's pretty obvious to anyone reading that the "new" continuity that emerged post-Rebirth was 95% Pre-FP and like 2% New 52 and then like 3% stuff from Rebirth itself. Notice how almost all of the moments shown in the actual page you're posting are taken from the Pre-Flashpoint timeline.

So, yeah, there's some New 52 stuff, the stuff that was worth keeping––the Court of Owls, the new Shazam family, Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz––but the vast majority of it has been...flushed away.

Lol no one said percentages. Particularly not 50 50 lol

What are you going on about?

Glad you finally got the point. An unknown amount of new52 and Rebirth continuity is here with us. More stories will reveal what this new Frontier is all about.


-----
Side note. MR Oz aka Jor El who was also heavily used in Bendis run ... originated in New52

New 52
With the start of the New 52, the DC Universe was reset and the history of nearly all of its characters was wiped clean. About halfway through this era, the mysterious Mr. Oz began appearing.

At first, Oz’s appearances are extremely small and have little impact on the main storyline. However, these appearances provide the setup for his much larger role in the Rebirth era.

You have to be so seperated from reality in your mind to not see that new52 iterations of characters followed thru and greatly effect Jon's age up and Superman's life.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Lol no one said percentages. Particularly not 50 50 lol

What are you going on about?

Glad you finally got the point. An unknown amount of new52 and Rebirth continuity is here with us. More stories will reveal what this new Frontier is all about.

Hm. Yeah, please try to refrain from insulting people on the forum or implying that other posters are unintelligent.

Like I said before, I understood your point from the very beginning. I just didn't agree and I still don't. If you think that the New 52 will be very relevant going forward, I don't know what to tell you because it most likely won't. Again, most of the New 52 changes were wildly unpopular. Yes, there were some high points, but...not much was liked by the fans.

So, we might see a Talon pop up or see Jessica Cruz every so often but...for the most part, one could skip the entirety of the New 52 and still be fine following the current books.

Side note. MR Oz aka Jor El who was also heavily used in Bendis run ... originated in New52

Uh, yeah, actually Jor El as Mr. Oz was a harbinger of the Rebirth era and the whole crux of his arc surrounded the whole "someone has been tampering with the timeline" thing that was being explored in Rebirth. So...

Also, he's dead again. So, I don't see him popping up again soon anyway.

You have to be so seperated from reality in your mind to not see that new52 iterations of characters followed thru and greatly effect Jon's age up and Superman's life.

Hm. So, I guess the Superman currently starring in the books is the same guy who was dating Wonder Woman? Or the guy whose parents are still dead?

No. That Superman was killed off and replaced.

[Greta]

LOL. I already debunked pretty much this entire argument that you already made. If you need a refresher:Again, you said that the New 52 was critically successful. So...again, ON AVERAGE, the series after the New 52 are still better reviewed than the New 52 ones. You can't move the goalposts now. And what do you think critics are?? They're fans. They're fans who love comics so much that they choose to review comics professionally.

Leapfrog correctly pointed out that -- although I mentioned the new 52's critical acclaim -- my argument has never shifted. That argument is that in general, regular everyday readers of DC comics favored the New 52, at least based on the information we've seen so far. Paid critics are not the majority of fans. By their very nature, user ratings debunk critic reviews because they represent a far greater number of readers than paid critics. I don't see how anyone could argue against that with a straight face.

Also, nice try cherry-picking certain issues of Justice League. However, let's actually see how Scott Snyder's 2018 run (the start of the current volume) stacked up against the beginning of Johns's New 52 run.

It isn't as though I picked the issues out of order. That image I posted is literally the last two consecutive months of the New 52 Justice League and 2018 Justice League runs. That is seriously what comes up when you click to change tabs. If you don't believe me, go to each page, click user reviews and see for yourself how it shows up. I didn’t pick the timeline, nor did I curate it in any way. It’s not my fault the current Justice League run sucks.

But rebirth still makes no sense without Flashpoint, and much of new 52. Metal makes no sense without the event of Rebirth. Death metal makes no sense without metal. Infinite Frontier makes no sense without death Metal and all the wally flash stuff and roy stuff...

Correct. The New 52 and Rebirth are still part of the timeline we are witnessing. Here is proof:

Jessica Cruz still exists with her New 52 origin intact.
Simon Baz still exists with his New 52 origin intact.
Bunker and Solstice still exist with their New 52 origins intact.
Wallace West (black Wally) still exists with his New 52 origin intact.
Duke Thomas still exists with his New 52 origin intact.
Many other original New 52 characters, Khalid, Tula, Nereus, Grail, the “Shazam Family” with Darla, Freddy, etc. and many, many others still exist with their New 52 origins intact.
Grail still exists with her New 52 origin intact.
The Darkseid War at the end of the New 52 Justice League run which produced Grail and sent Darkseid into a rebirth cycle in the ghost sector still happened.
Jason Todd still possesses the all-blades and was trained by the all-caste.
Jason Todd and Roy Harper are still old friends.
Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy are still more than friends.
John Constantine and Zatanna are still on/off again romantic cohorts.
Swamp Thing still works with the Justice League Dark on an occasional basis.
Damian Wayne is still considered to have died and resurrected.
Ocean Master with his drastically different and much improved New 52 origin is still the son of Atlanna and was deposed by Arthur then Mera.
Lisa Snart who died in pre52 is still not dead.
Ted Kord who died in pre52 is still not dead.
Maxwell Lord who died in pre52 is still not dead.
Animal Man’s son Cliff is still tragically dead.
The Blue Lantern Corp is still tragically dead and Saint Walker is still the only active blue lantern.

By the way... among the most significant of proof that the timelines merged and that all is canonical is that -- just last autumn -- Maxwell Lord attempted to kill Diana as vengeance for killing him in the pre52 timeline. It's blatant acknowledgement by DC that the timelines have been merged and just as importantly, that the characters know it. See here for image.

That stuff is literally all just off the top of my head, and the list goes on and on. Midnighter and Apollo have also not been sent back to Wildstorm from whence they came and have actually been seen making a reappearance lately. All of the above developments took place specifically within the New 52, many continuing through today and all are still acknowledged as having happened. Anyone who says the above is untrue or not “canon” is lying to you through their teeth. Case closed. And yes: Rebirth happened too: Jason didn’t “forget” Artemis or Bizarro and Stephanie and Tim were still in the Gotham Knights. Get over it, folks. Things changing is not equal to “didn’t happen.” The timeline has not been reversed into a rebooted Pre52 state. To say otherwise is a joke, given the above. It's a little sad that I have to even list proof for some people because it means they probably aren't even reading DC's material anymore. Otherwise they would know that it is DC's official position that the characters have experienced multiple versions of their lives.

And lastly, no -- the characters did not undergo some sort of "Total Recall" style memory erasure either. When the omniverse became a thing, there were some certain, specific memories which became more muted within the psyche of some characters out of necessity and for their sanity – but the memories remain and their accompanying events are still acknowledged as having taken place. That’s in the books -- period. The characters are also aware of the event which caused this: they didn't "sleep through it" or whatever fanfic people are now coming up with. That's just the way it is. So instead of kicking and screaming.... just deal with it.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Leapfrog correctly pointed out that -- although I mentioned the new 52's critical acclaim -- my argument has never shifted. That argument is that in general, regular everyday readers of DC comics favored the New 52, at least based on the information we've seen so far. Paid critics are not the majority of fans. By their very nature, user ratings debunk critic reviews because they represent a far greater number of readers than paid critics. I don't see how anyone could argue against that with a straight face.

First, do you mean "leapyear baby"?

Second, uh, you kinda did actually. I've quoted what you said before. You made it a huge part of your argument that the New 52 was "critically acclaimed and successful," stating that "[t]hat isn't a personal opinion; it's an objective and well-documented fact based on meta-reviews and sales."

And then, when it seemingly was made obvious to you that the reviews actually weren't too kind to the New 52 series, you basically changed your argument to "oh, but the fans tho!"

And, no, user reviews do not debunk critic reviews. There's a reason why people only pay attention to the critic score on Rotten Tomatoes for movies and TV. It's because the critic scores are, ya know, actually verified. The sites make sure that the critics posting reviews have actually seen or consumed the content they're reviewing. I could go post a "user review" right now for a movie or TV show or play or comic that I've never seen or read. Should my review of that be trusted?

Again, remember when fans tried review-bombing Captain Marvel or, more recently, The Suicide Squad? Yeah, "user reviews" don't really debunk critical consensus. And I have a feeling that there wouldn't be an attempt to otherize critics in this manner if they actually agreed with you.

It isn't as though I picked the issues out of order. That image I posted is literally the last two consecutive months of the New 52 Justice League and 2018 Justice League runs. That is seriously what comes up when you click to change tabs. If you don't believe me, go to each page, click user reviews and see for yourself how it shows up. I didn’t pick the timeline, nor did I curate it in any way. It’s not my fault the current Justice League run sucks.

No, you just focused on the tail end of what has actually for the most part been a pretty successful and critically well-received series, while cutting out the portions that would prove problematic for your argument. Bendis's current run might not be lighting up the charts, but neither did Johns's New 52 run at the beginning. Also also, you tried to apply the current JL run's critical backlash (which is only a few months old) to the entirety of the DC line, even when again, the majority of the DC line-up is still performing much better with critics than it was during the New 52.

I literally posted the numbers for comparison.

Correct. The New 52 and Rebirth are still part of the timeline we are witnessing. Here is proof:

Jessica Cruz still exists with her New 52 origin intact.
Simon Baz still exists with his New 52 origin intact.
Bunker and Solstice still exist with their New 52 origins intact.
Wallace West (black Wally) still exists with his New 52 origin intact.
Duke Thomas still exists with his New 52 origin intact.
Many other original New 52 characters, Khalid, Tula, Nereus, Grail, the “Shazam Family” with Darla, Freddy, etc. and many, many others still exist with their New 52 origins intact.
Grail still exists with her New 52 origin intact.
The Darkseid War at the end of the New 52 Justice League run which produced Grail and sent Darkseid into a rebirth cycle in the ghost sector still happened.
Jason Todd still possesses the all-blades and was trained by the all-caste.
Jason Todd and Roy Harper are still old friends.
Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy are still more than friends.
John Constantine and Zatanna are still on/off again romantic cohorts.
Swamp Thing still works with the Justice League Dark on an occasional basis.
Damian Wayne is still considered to have died and resurrected.
Ocean Master with his drastically different and much improved New 52 origin is still the son of Atlanna and was deposed by Arthur then Mera.
Lisa Snart who died in pre52 is still not dead.
Ted Kord who died in pre52 is still not dead.
Maxwell Lord who died in pre52 is still not dead.
Animal Man’s son Cliff is still tragically dead.
The Blue Lantern Corp is still tragically dead and Saint Walker is still the only active blue lantern.

By the way... among the most significant of proof that the timelines merged and that all is canonical is that -- just last autumn -- Maxwell Lord attempted to kill Diana as vengeance for killing him in the pre52 timeline. It's blatant acknowledgement by DC that the timelines have been merged and just as importantly, that the characters know it. See here for image.

Uh huh and...how many characters from the New 52 are we actually seeing regularly?

I haven't seen Bunker in years, except if you count showing up in the background of an issue of Teen Titans Academy. Nor have I seen Solstice in years and, actually, Solstice debuted before the New 52. She first appeared in Teen Titans #88 in 2010. So, if she does pop up again, I wouldn't be surprised if she showed up as her Pre-Flashpoint self.

Additionally, since the Batman timeline was relatively untouched, I wouldn't really count things like Damian dying as "proof" of the New 52, since that was literally always Morrison's plan from the minute he introduced Damian in 2006. Batman, Inc. was just Morrison finishing up his Pre-FP run.

But, you've kinda missed the point. Fans and critics alike were so cynical of the New 52 because it took the diverse and multi-faceted universe that DC had cultivated over decades and stripped out the characters and legacy that they loved. That was the New 52's mission statement--to "streamline" the universe--was it not? Everybody got new origins, their timelines were truncated to only 5 years, their redesigns were...iffy, etc.

So, the reason that we are most definitely not in the New 52 timeline/universe anymore is because of all the things that the New 52 kicked out of continuity that have now been brought back into continuity and, in many cases, supplanted the versions that were there in the New 52. Look at Superman, look at Wonder Woman, look at Flash.

Superman instead of being the 20-something edgelord with Wonder Woman as his girlfriend is now back to being a 40-something year old man, married to Lois, and they even now have a son. And they literally made it a whole event that the New 52 Superman was killed off, along with the New 52 Lois.

Wonder Woman's New 52 run has also been mostly swept under the rug and the New 52 Amazons have been entirely replaced with versions more closely resembling their Pre-Flashpoint selves.

Wally West is back as the main Flash, with Linda, Jai, and Irey back too, despite all of them being erased during the New 52.

Cassandra Cain is back as Batgirl and both her and Steph remember that, oh yeah, they were Batgirls before.

Cyborg is back on the Titans and the New Teen Titans continuity has been restored.

Classic Conner Kent Superboy is back and the New 52 Superboy is nowhere to be seen

Connor Hawke, Jade, Obsidian, Alan Scott and the rest of the JSA, Lian Harper, etc. are all back the way they were Pre-FP, despite having all been erased after Flashpoint.

So, yeah, you can call this current iteration of the DCU whatever. You can say it's confusing, you can say that everything happened, but...not everything did. New 52 Superman never existed. The New 52 Amazons never existed. Most of the retcons from the New 52 continuity have been completely reversed and overwritten. Those are just the facts as they currently stand.

And none of us are "kicking and screaming" about anything. We LIKE the way that DC currently is. The DC Universe that we loved and missed is pretty much back. We're not holding out hope that all traces of the New 52 will be destroyed. But at the same time, we don't expect the New 52 "continuity" to make a comeback, given how unpopular it was.

If anything, it seems that you need to accept the fact that the New 52 status quo has changed and most of the continuity implemented during that era is defunct.

[Menacer]

Hm. Yeah, please try to refrain from insulting people on the forum or implying that other posters are unintelligent.

Like I said before, I understood your point from the very beginning. I just didn't agree and I still don't. If you think that the New 52 will be very relevant going forward, I don't know what to tell you because it most likely won't. Again, most of the New 52 changes were wildly unpopular. Yes, there were some high points, but...not much was liked by the fans.

So, we might see a Talon pop up or see Jessica Cruz every so often but...for the most part, one could skip the entirety of the New 52 and still be fine following the current books.



Uh, yeah, actually Jor El as Mr. Oz was a harbinger of the Rebirth era and the whole crux of his arc surrounded the whole "someone has been tampering with the timeline" thing that was being explored in Rebirth. So...

Also, he's dead again. So, I don't see him popping up again soon anyway.



Hm. So, I guess the Superman currently starring in the books is the same guy who was dating Wonder Woman? Or the guy whose parents are still dead?

No. That Superman was killed off and replaced.

Gigantic face palm

Still all saying things I didnt say

Good luck my friend!