At this point, "New 52" isn't that bad at all.

[superduperman]

I think we can all agree that everyone loved the New 52 and that it should be brought back as official continuity.

[Menacer]

No, I'm not, man. Your argument just isn't as strong as you think it is. In fact, you are providing evidence that more so supports what I'm saying as opposed to actually supporting what you're saying.

And again, I literally was saying that the Rebirth timeline was a combination of Pre-Flashpoint and some New 52 elements. But, again, that would mean that it is no longer the New 52 timeline. Here's a metaphoric example using the same formula you employed:

7+3 = 10; Now...if that's the case, does 10=3? No, obviously it does not because there's all this other stuff that prevents 10 from being 3. So, think of Rebirth as 10; Pre-Flashpoint as 7; and the New 52 as 3.

So, sorry, but the New 52 ended in 2016. The very entry you pulled up to describe Rebirth literally said that they used the "end of the New 52" to initiate the Rebirth timeline.

And again, you do know that there were "52 Earths" in the DC Multiverse BEFORE the New 52, right? Here is the wikipedia entry for the maxiseries 52 that came out in 2006-2007. Here is the relevant part:



So, yes, there were 52 Earths before the New 52. That is where the New 52 got its name from. So, just so it's clear, the concept of 52 parallel universes in the DC multiverse actually did not originate during the New 52. That is a concept that predates the New 52 by at least several years...

This is hilarious man

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^^^^^^
Quote from images
Dark Nights: Death Metal" is the sequel to 2017's Dark Nights: Metal and concludes Scott Snyder's run in DC Comics; he stated "Everything is coming back, we want to pay it forward. The Omega Titans, Barbatos, the Forge, it’s all coming back. Everything you read, our goal is to reward. All of it culminates in like a year in like a "Metal" event."[1] "Death Metal" not only concludes the three-year spanning Dark Multiverse narrative that began with "Dark Nights: Metal", but will bring an end to the New 52 and DC Rebirth continuities that began with 2011's "Flashpoint" storyline.

In April 2020 during an interview on DC Daily, Snyder assured that the purpose of "Death Metal" is to unify every storyline from mainline DC Universe comic books, including the standalone stories.[2][3]

So from 2011 til 2021 the new 52 and Rebirth continuity has been on going.

Though its OVER NOW as of Infinite Frontier

Not that complicated. But lemme guess you still dont understand?

[ducklord]

I think we can all agree that everyone loved the New 52 and that it should be brought back as official continuity.

Now that's just plain mean

[InfamousBG]

I think we can all agree that everyone loved the New 52 and that it should be brought back as official continuity.

Oh yes please bring it all back LOL!!!!

[JackDaw]

I think we can all agree that everyone loved the New 52 and that it should be brought back as official continuity.

Lol.

Remind me…was DC’s plan to make continuity simpler or more complex?

Thank goodness that I just stick to reading a few old series where I trust writer to give me all I need to understand story in the comic itself. (Next up: Sandman Mystery Theatre.)

[InfamousBG]

(Next up: Sandman Mystery Theatre.)

Good choice.

[JackDaw]

Good choice.

Thanks. Been tempted to give it a go for sometime…and it was on offer on Comixology last week, so opened the (electronic) wallet for once. Looking forward to the read.

[SteelisLean]

1. I think we ALL need to simmer down a little bit here. We're all fans. It's all good. A little less snark and hostility would probably go a long way, and probably keep the mods from stepping in.

2. As I said before, when it comes to continuity (which I find an endlessly fun topic, but which I know others are less concerned about), I think some of us are talking right past each other. Let's see if we can agree on a few things:

A) A few years ago, the entire DC Metaverse was almost entirely rebooted from the ground up in what we call "The New 52." Although some things from the Pre-Flashpoint continuity bled into this version of the Metaverse (notably most of Batman and Green Lantern), continuity at this point was largely a blank canvas.
B) More recently, starting with the DC Rebirth initiative, and winding forward through Doomsday Clock and the two Metal crossovers, more and more of the pre-Flashpoint continuity has been integrated into the New 52 Universe. Notably, the entire golden age of the DCU has had its history restored, and the Titans, which in the original New 52 telling had been an entirely new group founded by Tim Drake, had much of its previous history restored.
C) As a consequence of the pre-Flashpoint history getting folded in-stride into the New 52 timeline, it's fair to say that the current, mainstream DCU is neither the New 52 NOR the post-Crisis DCU - it's something else. Call it the Infinite Frontier version of the DC Metaverse.
D) (This will be a tricky one) In the Infinite Frontier, some New 52 stories may be retroactively altered the next time they're referenced. Some may even be quietly ignored because they don't fit.
E) (This will be an equally tricky one) In the Infinite Frontier, a great many pre-Flashpoint stories may be retroactively altered the next time they're referenced. Many may even be quietly ignored because they just don't fit.
F.1) With regards to Superman - from the Infinite Frontier perspective, there has only ever been one Superman on Earth-0. His adopted parents are alive, he married Lois, and he has a kid. He recently revealed his secret identity to the world.
F.2) Thanks to the events of Dark Metal, Superman is dimly aware that his personal history is the result of the amalgamation of two previous versions of himself (he's also vaguely aware of his pre-Crisis history and his golden age self). But in the Infinite Frontier timeline, the events of this merger never technically happened - the stories of the New 52 Superman (which, as per D) may have unfolded a little differently, or in some cases not at all) happened to the Superman of the Infinite Frontier, NOT a separate "New 52 Superman."
F.3) As per Doomsday Clock, the New 52 Superman continues to have adventures in the New 52 Metaverse.

Are these all agreeable?

Very intelligent post, kudos to you.

The part I would revise is F2.

The new 52 supes was the "first" original to the 2011 timeline, and his absorption in Reborn is what allowed newer supes to be considered "made" original/native to 2011 timeline and perceived as such by others. Without the event of New 52 supes absorption into him, new Clark would still be considered from another earth. Therefore New 52 had to have existed, because it was their fusion that made newer Clark into "original" -- he "inherited" that from New52 supes.

So new 52 supes did exist, he did take part in the stories up til his death, there were two supes for a period, and then reborn happened and peoples perception of them (and their past) were made one. Reborn didn't rewrite the any of the characters history in a "physical" way; it rewrote everyones perception of supes within history. Again, New 52 supes was not snipped out of or excised from the timeline Dr Manhattan style, because if he was, then Newer Clark would have never fused with anybody and would remain an elseworld variant. It had to have happened.

Also supes and diana and many others aren't just dimly aware of the multiverse or their personal split lives. Theyre very aware of it now. They all were at the end of death metal.

Even maxwell lord knows hes had another life:



Just throw out the idea that characters don't know theyre in a multiverse and have gone through multiple crises, events, and versions of themselves. They all know it, lol.

[Pinsir]

If the Post-Crisis Reboot had happened in 2011 instead of the New 52, we would pretty much see the same phenomena taking place. People would hate these new stories for replacing the old continuity, they would complain that a lot of characters were missing or changed, they would say these new stories weren't as good as the old ones. The changes to Wonder Woman were massive for instance, I mean, she wasn't even a founding member of the JL!

I always find most hatred against the New 52 stems from an entrenched nastalgia than like a genuine critique.

[SteelisLean]

Your cherry picking what u wanna see.

Yes new52 "ended" but it clearly says that continuity was merged/included into the new state of the universe.

Ie
Preflashpoint + new52 = rebirth

Not quite... The branding of new 52 ended, just like rebirth did, just like infinite frontier will. The new 52 timeline did not end. 2011 is still the launching off point thats persisted even through death metal. Everything else is rolled into 2011s timeline out of death metal. There was never a second flashpoint or anything like that which kickstarted a new timeline or reverted to an old one -- never. People who say otherwise are unable to point to any such event

[ducklord]

Very intelligent post, kudos to you.

The part I would revise is F2.

The new 52 supes was the "first" original to the 2011 timeline, and his absorption in Reborn is what allowed newer supes to be considered "made" original/native to 2011 timeline and perceived as such by others. Without the event of New 52 supes absorption into him, new Clark would still be considered from another earth. Therefore New 52 had to have existed, because it was their fusion that made newer Clark into "original" -- he "inherited" that from New52 supes.

So new 52 supes did exist, he did take part in the stories up til his death, there were two supes for a period, and then reborn happened and peoples perception of them (and their past) were made one. Reborn didn't rewrite the any of the characters history in a "physical" way; it rewrote everyones perception of supes within history. Again, New 52 supes was not snipped out of or excised from the timeline Dr Manhattan style, because if he was, then Newer Clark would have never fused with anybody and would remain an elseworld variant. It had to have happened.

Also supes and diana and many others aren't just dimly aware of the multiverse or their personal split lives. Theyre very aware of it now. They all were at the end of death metal.

Even maxwell lord knows hes had another life:



Just throw out the idea that characters don't know theyre in a multiverse and have gone through multiple crises, events, and versions of themselves. They all know it, lol.

I think we're gonna have a quibble here

I'm pretty sure that, if you laid out the history of the Infinite Frontier Earth-0 timeline from "Krypton Exploded" to "Today" you'd only find one Kal-El. That's what the timeline merge of the two New 52 Superman with the Pre-Flashpoint Superman *means* - in the merged timeline there has only ever been one Superman. His experiences are a blend of the New 52 Superman (t-shirt and jeans early activism, a dating history with Wonder Woman, maybe a flirtation with a high Jim Lee collar for a while) and the pre-Flashpoint Supes (marrying Lois, getting killed by Doomsday, etc). Merges of timelines tend to be retroactive, or else there's not much point.

But it's not a paradox. Superman's current personal timeline is a blend of two previous timelines, but neither one got eliminated in the process. The "pure" New 52 timeline is still out there, somewhere, as is the pre-Flashpoint, pre-Crisis, and golden age timeline. The creation of this timeline is a matter of omniversal history (ie stuff we readers know, and that DC's heroes are now more aware of), but on the ground on Earth-0 it has no bearing to the more-or-less orderly march of time. From their perspective, there's only ever been one Superman.

[Adekis]

Superman's current timeline is such a mess! Big, big sigh.

I miss the New 52 for Superman, I'll admit it. For a while I was bitter about it, now for the last few years I'm mostly just drained.

[SteelisLean]

I think we're gonna have a quibble here

I'm pretty sure that, if you laid out the history of the Infinite Frontier Earth-0 timeline from "Krypton Exploded" to "Today" you'd only find one Kal-El. That's what the timeline merge of the two New 52 Superman with the Pre-Flashpoint Superman *means* - in the merged timeline there has only ever been one Superman. His experiences are a blend of the New 52 Superman (t-shirt and jeans early activism, a dating history with Wonder Woman, maybe a flirtation with a high Jim Lee collar for a while) and the pre-Flashpoint Supes (marrying Lois, getting killed by Doomsday, etc). Merges of timelines tend to be retroactive, or else there's not much point.

The Infinite Frontier Earth-0 timeline is spawned out of death metal, and death metal broke the barriers between all timelines. To lay out its history would be starting out with multiple lines joining into one really thick line and continuing from there. There is no single past but again if there was, it would be the one that started in 2011 which had 5 years of New 52 Supes followed by New Supes who absorbed New52s original status. Heres where the disagreement is: I understand this to be the world's perception of New Supes status and even his past being changed, while you believe the past actually changed in a tangible way so there was only one. This is impossible though and here is why:

For new 52 superman to have not tangibly existed creates a paradox in which Superman Reborn could not occur and newer Clark could have never absorbed New 52 or inherit his "original" status. He would still be an elseworld variant and Nightwing wouldn't remember his past with him and such. So how does that fit into your theory that New 52 was snipped out with scissors? Thats how Im interpreting you anyway.


There still is a point to the merger even when not physically retroactive: and that is it changes characters perception of his past to a way that befits the writers. It also sets a new direction for the future. There is still plenty of point to such a merger.

[leapyear baby]

They kept some New 52 elements but that doesn't stop it from being something else.

They kept a lot since its the still the 2011 timelines. greta posted a good list and its prolly not even close to being fully comprehensive.

Correct. The New 52 and Rebirth are still part of the timeline we are witnessing. Here is proof:

Jessica Cruz still exists with her New 52 origin intact.
Simon Baz still exists with his New 52 origin intact.
Bunker and Solstice still exist with their New 52 origins intact.
Wallace West (black Wally) still exists with his New 52 origin intact.
Duke Thomas still exists with his New 52 origin intact.
Many other original New 52 characters, Khalid, Tula, Nereus, Grail, the “Shazam Family” with Darla, Freddy, etc. and many, many others still exist with their New 52 origins intact.
Grail still exists with her New 52 origin intact.
The Darkseid War at the end of the New 52 Justice League run which produced Grail and sent Darkseid into a rebirth cycle in the ghost sector still happened.
Jason Todd still possesses the all-blades and was trained by the all-caste.
Jason Todd and Roy Harper are still old friends.
Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy are still more than friends.
John Constantine and Zatanna are still on/off again romantic cohorts.
Swamp Thing still works with the Justice League Dark on an occasional basis.
Damian Wayne is still considered to have died and resurrected.
Ocean Master with his drastically different and much improved New 52 origin is still the son of Atlanna and was deposed by Arthur then Mera.
Lisa Snart who died in pre52 is still not dead.
Ted Kord who died in pre52 is still not dead.
Maxwell Lord who died in pre52 is still not dead.
Animal Man’s son Cliff is still tragically dead.
The Blue Lantern Corp is still tragically dead and Saint Walker is still the only active blue lantern.

Theres also midnighter and apollo now appearing in superman and authority, new52 villains reappearing, more and more. I anticipate much in infinite frontier after theyre done with old introductions

[ducklord]

If the Post-Crisis Reboot had happened in 2011 instead of the New 52, we would pretty much see the same phenomena taking place. People would hate these new stories for replacing the old continuity, they would complain that a lot of characters were missing or changed, they would say these new stories weren't as good as the old ones. The changes to Wonder Woman were massive for instance, I mean, she wasn't even a founding member of the JL!

I always find most hatred against the New 52 stems from an entrenched nastalgia than like a genuine critique.

My recollection at the time is that there was a lot of excitement around the new Wonder Woman, because as a character she hadn't been written so well in years (if ever). Similarly, the new revisions to Superman were tolerated because, hey, Byrne. Even though there were hiccups in those early years (poor, poor Donna Troy), there was a lot of excitement post-Crisis, as well.

I think that a lot of fanboy tolerance of the post-Crisis universe back in the day was because the Crisis was, on balance, primarily non-destructive. For every clean reboot that messed a few things up (Wonder Woman), there was something additive (all the golden agers and Captain Marvel are on the same Earth and can team up more often!). And, honestly, around 80-90% of the titles came through the Crisis with most of their continuity intact. It was, in many ways, like the merger of the New 52 and the pre-Flashpoint metaverses today - most of the stories from both timelines are probably kicking around in there in some form, but a few have probably retroactively modified or dropped. And that's cool.

The New 52 was much more of a "tossing on the baby with the bathwater," approach. If you were enjoying anything other than Green Lantern or Batman heading into Flashpoint, you were s.o.l. a few months later. So naturally, there were hurt feelings.

It didn't help that, yeah, a good chunk of the new titles either a) didn't seem to warrant a line-wide reboot, or b) kind of sucked.