At this point, "New 52" isn't that bad at all.

[InfamousBG]

I could go on and on.

This forum and its 50 yr old jaded fans is a horrible metric for what is loved in the dc universe.

Hardcore fans arent the same as hardcore anal nitpicker fans.

I can go on as well but you will just keep coming back with you %'s and whatever else. You understand there are thousands if not millions of fans that do not even use this site or any site you are quoting? You do understand that right? I dont think you do, sorry.

Hardcore fans hated the New 52, I know I am one of them. I am also not 50 years old. I am 40 and have collected my entire life.

So pleaseeeee keep going on and on and on and on. It will get you know where.

[ducklord]

Definitely not doing what your saying.

What im saying is for the average hardcore fan (ie buying weekly trades and issues) the continuity is easily cohesive enough that they dont need to nitpick it.

Its hard to get a metric of some of what we are discussing.

But even a book like Heroes in Crisis. Mostly hated on this forum.

On goodreads its just under 3.5 stars out of 5. Ie 70% approval out of 1830ish ratings.

Identity Crisis. Also commonly hated here... has over 20000 ratings and over 4 stars. 80% positive.

I could go on and on.

This forum and its 50 yr old jaded fans is a horrible metric for what is loved in the dc universe.

Hardcore fans arent the same as hardcore anal nitpicker fans.

There's definitely some truth to what you say with regards to critical approval (my two cents - Identity Crisis is a reasonably well-told story that I don't like, while Heroes in Crisis is just plain crap on a stick), but I'm going to quibble about continuity being "coherent enough" for hardcore fans over the past decade or so. Speaking only for myself, I have rarely found the DCU continuity to be as wibbly-wobbly as it has been during the New52/Rebirth/Metal transition.

I *think* that it's finally pulling out of a tailspin now that it's essentially settled on a "Multiverse that largely resembles pre-Flashpoint continuity" foundation, but it was pretty rough sledding there for a few years.

[witchboy]

Definitely not doing what your saying.

What im saying is for the average hardcore fan (ie buying weekly trades and issues) the continuity is easily cohesive enough that they dont need to nitpick it.

Its hard to get a metric of some of what we are discussing.

But even a book like Heroes in Crisis. Mostly hated on this forum.

On goodreads its just under 3.5 stars out of 5. Ie 70% approval out of 1830ish ratings.

Identity Crisis. Also commonly hated here... has over 20000 ratings and over 4 stars. 80% positive.

I could go on and on.

This forum and its 50 yr old jaded fans is a horrible metric for what is loved in the dc universe.

Hardcore fans arent the same as hardcore anal nitpicker fans.

So ageism and gatekeeping?

[Menacer]

I can go on as well but you will just keep coming back with you %'s and whatever else. You understand there are thousands if not millions of fans that do not even use this site or any site you are quoting? You do understand that right? I dont think you do, sorry.

Hardcore fans hated the New 52, I know I am one of them. I am also not 50 years old. I am 40 and have collected my entire life.

So pleaseeeee keep going on and on and on and on. It will get you know where.

Yah thats why I specifically said it would be hard without picking a metric.

Well best sellers are a metric

Flashpoint. Best seller. Its inspired the new flash film coming in 2020

FP and new52 shook things up. And that shake down resulted in event after event that have all been best sellers.

Dc isnt crying cause it took a risk with rebooting dc with new52

They are laughing to the bank ...

Rebirth, metal, death metal and now the Solution to the nearly decade series of crisises leading into Infinite Frontier...

And no Dc didnt fix it how maybe you would like

But these events were huge money for dc and breathed life into the comics. And told an awesome story while they did it
https://www.gamesradar.com/dc-spent-...its-your-turn/

[InfamousBG]

And no Dc didnt fix it how maybe you would like

But I like what DC is doing now. So I dont even get what you are trying to say or state.

[Menacer]

But I like what DC is doing now. So I dont even get what you are trying to say or state.

Yah I agree! Right now seems really exciting! Definitely.

I was always a bit behind with collecting as I stuck with trades.

But with Death Metal ending and Infinite Frontier 0, along with the 80 page isseus and singles often being over sized at 32 pages etc I finally came around to collecting issues monthly and its a lot of fun.

Definitely hold the same sentiment that more of what we are getting now is very welcome!

So far come collecting
Crush and Lobo mini
Infinite Frontier mini
Superman Sun of Kal el
Static Shock
Teen Titans Academy
SHAZAM mini
BATMAN Detective mini
Batman 89 mini
Trying to finish off Bendis Superman AC so I can get into current issues
Blue & Gold
Flash ongoing
Sure im forgetting something
Ultimately I wanna give each of the books a try and see which I wanna stick with.

Hopefully Infinite Frontier leads to a more cohesive fanbase.

[InfamousBG]

Yah I agree! Right now seems really exciting! Definitely.

I was always a bit behind with collecting as I stuck with trades.

But with Death Metal ending and Infinite Frontier 0, along with the 80 page isseus and singles often being over sized at 32 pages etc I finally came around to collecting issues monthly and its a lot of fun.

Definitely hold the same sentiment that more of what we are getting now is very welcome!

So far come collecting
Crush and Lobo mini
Infinite Frontier mini
Superman Sun of Kal el
Static Shock
Teen Titans Academy
SHAZAM mini
BATMAN Detective mini
Batman 89 mini
Trying to finish off Bendis Superman AC so I can get into current issues
Blue & Gold
Flash ongoing
Sure im forgetting something
Ultimately I wanna give each of the books a try and see which I wanna stick with.

Hopefully Infinite Frontier leads to a more cohesive fanbase.

Yes I pick up most of those as well. Most I am happy with. Only a few I am not (Green Lantern needs Hal).

I honestly like what DC is doing right now. I never thought I could like this "President Superman" but he is growing on me. I hope DC keeps it up. I am a fan of Infinite Frontier so far. I just want to to end with a JSA monthly.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

You still keep missing the point. It doesn't matter that superman doesn't remember. The event took place and accumulated to the result we read and they experienced.

Doesnt matter that dc now has "forgotten" that timeline or whatever.

You could not have had Rebirth Action Comics Volume 1 without the road to Rebirth lois and clark, you couldn't have had lois and clark without the Convergence story, etc etc

The storyline builds.

If you simply burned Flashpoint and all the new52. Destroyed it from existence. Then

Doomsday clock makes no sense. Reborn makes no sense. The two clarks story in Rebirth makes no sense...

You claim they forget but stories 100% references these older new 52 stories and books.


If our universe is cyclically. So each big bang creates a new universe and a new collapse and a new big bang

The same effect is true for dc events that reset the universe.

You need the 1940s, 50s, 60s etc all the way to 1985 COIE only makes sense with that convoluted history. Regardless that it was merged or erased you need the past to fully appreciate the book and story itself.

Its not that complicated.

But you appear to be way complicating the obvious

Dude, no, I 100% know what you're trying to say: you're saying that we wouldn't have our current status quo if not for the New 52. And in some ways, you might be right. BUT you're not getting what I'm saying. There is a difference between the perception of the readers and the perception of the characters in-universe. So, yeah, as readers WE know that the New 52 happened.

However, in most cases in-universe, most prevalently with Superman, it's as if it didn't. So, in many ways, if you're returning to DC after leaving with the New 52, you honestly could skip the entire New 52 and not be lost at all. Most of the retcons and meaningful continuity changes that came with the New 52 no longer have any bearing on the present DC Universe and have been reversed.

[Menacer]

Dude, no, I 100% know what you're trying to say: you're saying that we wouldn't have our current status quo if not for the New 52. And in some ways, you might be right. BUT you're not getting what I'm saying. There is a difference between the perception of the readers and the perception of the characters in-universe. So, yeah, as readers WE know that the New 52 happened.

However, in most cases in-universe, most prevalently with Superman, it's as if it didn't. So, in many ways, if you're returning to DC after leaving with the New 52, you honestly could skip the entire New 52 and not be lost at all. Most of the retcons and meaningful continuity changes that came with the New 52 no longer have any bearing on the present DC Universe and have been reversed.

Okay yah I see what your saying.

In that way of looking at it sort of yes.

But rebirth still makes no sense without Flashpoint, and much of new 52. Metal makes no sense without the event of Rebirth. Death metal makes no sense without metal. Infinite Frontier makes no sense without death Metal and all the wally flash stuff and roy stuff...

Isnt that fair to say?

I mean not that you couldn't read cliff notes or summaries...

But the chain of events still brought us here.

Or am I still missing something?

Also did you read the article I posted?
https://www.gamesradar.com/dc-spent-...its-your-turn/

[leapyear baby]

I really wish people would not use language like authentic fans. My view is if you
are here writing, expressing your thoughts on a DC message board you qualify
as authentic. The only thing which annoys me is when people talk about the crap
that comes from Marvel. But that is me.

These characters, many of them 80 years old, have been around for quite some time.
What happens to them matters a lot. We discuss things, phrase things, occasionally it gets
heated. But we all of us have a stake, an ownership in DC Comics.

Where is that coming from? The person was talking about obtaining authentic data, not fans. Authentic data is data directly from a source and without any outside influence..

The post literallly had nothing to do with authenticc fans or pass judgment on them...I don't usually call people out like this but you really need to read the whole post next time...

Also i do agree that user reviews are more informative than critic views. They are the views right from the source. I

[MajorHoy]

. . . But rebirth still makes no sense without Flashpoint . . .

I'm not sure Rebirth winds up making any sense with or without Flashpoint.

[Doctor Know]

Continuity in a shared universe is always a tricky beast. Here's my impression of DC's throughout its 80+ year history:

Golden Age - "Yeah, some of these stories contradict each other, but who cares? Comics are for kids, wheee!"

Silver Age - "Okay, we're going to start caring about continuity. All the old stories happened on Earth-2. What do you mean we accidentally created a separate Wonder Girl? Okay, we'll explain that. Sure hope that doesn't come to bite us in the ass later."

Bronze Age - "Okay some of that Silver Age stuff was a little embarrassing (looking at you, Mopee), but we'll go on pretending that our continuity is one continuous stream by studiously ignoring the dumb stuff and consigning a few stories to Earth-B (like that one where Hawk and Dove were suddenly in their 30's). Steady as she goes."

Crisis - "Okay, the gross accumulation of our silly stuff was too much. Let's push the Big Red Reset Button."

Post-Crisis - "Most of the Silver Age stuff you liked probably still happened (except for Wonder Woman and Hawkman, and about 50% of Superman). There's now a shared history between the Golden Age and Silver Age (yay!), which has erased the Golden Age Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and a few others, making Roy Thomas sad (boo!). Also, there's no Superboy in the Legion (argh). Still, 90% of our characters are mostly the same as they were pre-Crisis, and this is our mostly well-organized continuity going forward for the next 25 years! Please enjoy the next two decades of annual events, most of which tie in reasonably well to our professionally edited ongoing titles."

Zero Hour - "We realize that we screwed up Hawkman's continuity. Here's a fix that won't stick. Also, Mike Carlin hates the JSA."

Infinite Crisis - "Getting rid of Wonder Woman's history was dumb. We're sorry. Also, sorry about the Byrne Doom Patrol. Also, here's a bunch of heroes getting violently killed, and a new multiverse."

Flashpoint - "Here's a summer crossover about the Flash. Oh wait, it's a sudden unexpected, and not thoroughly planned reboot."

New 52 - "90% of our characters have been rebooted, except for the Batman and Green Lantern franchises, a) because they sell well, and b) we're afraid that Grant Morrison will feed us to a metatextual demon. We promise this isn't a hard reboot, even though it clearly is. Please enjoy these titles, a third of which are reboots, a third of which appear to have been hastily re-written to accommodate this reboot, and a third of which seem to be pitches for characters we had lying around the office. Also, for some apparent reason, Liefeld."

Rebirth - "Okay, we recognize that doing away with almost all of our continuity and replacing it with several years of middling line-wide cohesion has annoyed a lot of you. So now we're going to hamfistedly re-insert the pre-Flashpoint continuity back into our line starting right now via special guest star Dr. Manhattan."

Doomsday Clock - "Hey, look over here! I'm the vehicle for Rebirth! Oh dear, I seem to be slowwwwwwwing dowwwwwwnnnn... um, nevermind!"

Metal/Death Metal - "It all happened! What does it mean? Who cares, 'cause it's so freakin' cool! (squeedily air guitar sounds)"

Infinite Frontier - "Surprise, it's a mostly coherent story set in our freshly rebooted, mostly pre-Flashpoint multiverse! If you don't ask us too many tough questions about the New52, can we all pretend it never happened?"

Glad to see someone make the attempt to straighten out the continuity and series of events.

I long since ignored DC and their never-ending "universe altering cosmic events" to set a status quo they like and want to work in.

I can choose for myself which continuities and iterations of the characters I want to read and which ones I hold true.


The thing about this tangled ball of yarn that DC has created out of their character continuities and timeline histories. Is that they would seemingly need an event, to explain away all the other events, reboots and revisions. Which would likely make things worse three years from that event.

[leapyear baby]

Again, you said that the New 52 was critically successful. So...again, ON AVERAGE, the series after the New 52 are still better reviewed than the New 52 ones. You can't move the goalposts now. And what do you think critics are?? They're fans. They're fans who love comics so much that they choose to review comics professionally.

As for who "more authentically represents the fandom," well I'd rather trust the source that I know actually READ the thing and whose thoughts I can read in an actual review over an anonymous commenter/rater who I can't verify actually read what they're talking about. And, for that matter, a lot of those "scores" are tabulated from people who don't read the thing but want to either condemn or support it on principle.

Coming in late to this thread, this seems pretty dishonest... and I try to give the benefit of the doubt. I just read the whole back and forth and they mentioned 'critical' acclaim only once, almost in passing, and in the very same post they were also emphasizing importance of everyday fans opinions that they feel aren't being taken into account. so you can't say that by introducing general fan reviews, theyve "shifted goalposts" when thats been a dimension of their argument all along. thats pretty ridiculous..

I would even challenge to say you have wanted to shift the posts.. you started off earlier with references to "general fanbase" as mattering and dismissing "the minority opinion." And now have shifted goalposts to say professional critic opinions matter the most, even though professional critics are a minority of comic book purchasers. There are 100x more people reading comics who don't work as critics, and evident they have diverging views based on the charts.. It appears you shifted your goalposts after realizing from the links that the general non-critic votes were not in your favor. If youre willing to do that because you don't like being shown evidence that debunks yours, then it gives the appearance that youre just pushing a stubborn agenda.

When you can, suggest rereading this thread from start to finish... sometimes you can get a more objective understanding of one's own argument when not currently engaging in it. From a "big picture" perspective, you've been by far the most ardent detractor of the new 52 within the 13 page thread, .. almost like it's personal for you, whether good or bad. But if there are legit arguments of why the New52 is worse than what we have going now, you aren't helping the overall argument by shifting goalposts and plugging your ears to data that contradicts yours. Im all for lively conversation and stuff and its even fun to read...but if you have to shift goalposts to critic reviews from your previous because its the only way you can come up with favorable numbers/scores, then it gives the appearance of being out of your depth. It makes it look like your own personal crusade and that youre not amenable to evolving your views, and that bodes ill for everyone

With that, I can offer my two cents thrown.. I didn't love the new52 the same way my 16 year old daughter does (maybe its generational?) but I still liked a lot of it and at the same time I enjoy recent stuff too. Ive got no horse in this race....in fact, Im still fuzzy on the metaverse or whatever we calling it now LOL. Just wanted to share some wisdom (really to everyone) after seeing the direction this thread was going.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Coming in late to this thread, this seems pretty dishonest... and I try to give the benefit of the doubt. I just read the whole back and forth and they mentioned 'critical' acclaim only once, almost in passing, and in the very same post they were also emphasizing importance of everyday fans opinions that they feel aren't being taken into account. so you can't say that by introducing general fan reviews, theyve "shifted goalposts" when thats been a dimension of their argument all along. thats pretty ridiculous..

I would even challenge to say you have wanted to shift the posts.. you started off earlier with references to "general fanbase" as mattering and dismissing "the minority opinion." And now have shifted goalposts to say professional critic opinions matter the most, even though professional critics are a minority of comic book purchasers. There are 100x more people reading comics who don't work as critics, and evident they have diverging views based on the charts.. It appears you shifted your goalposts after realizing from the links that the general non-critic votes were not in your favor. If youre willing to do that because you don't like being shown evidence that debunks yours, then it gives the appearance that youre just pushing a stubborn agenda.

Just for reference, this is what that poster said in one of their posts:

Firstly, nobody here -- neither me nor you -- is equipped to speak for the fanbase. Secondly, you are picking and choosing to address examples you don't like personally rather than on the basis of how successful they were. All the titles I mentioned were critically acclaimed and successful. That isn't a personal opinion; it's an objective and well-documented fact based on meta-reviews and sales. So... yeah. Thirdly, be careful to confuse opinions you hear in online echo chambers with the opinions of all real life fans. Internet users in online communities have a huge propensity for sheltering themselves in groups that complain about the same thing and end up mistakenly believing everyone else out there shares the same general opinion. They don't. Most fans of the genre don't even regularly visit much less post on sites like this, so you do not hear from them. For example

I'm just saying if you say that the "critical" consensus around the New 52 was one of acclaim and success, you should be able to back up that assertion. But, the actual record shows that the New 52 was not critically acclaimed and in many cases was critically panned.

Also, that poster wasn't mentioning "everyday" fans as a way to simply bring them up but as a way to discredit and delegitimize the opinions of people who didn't like the New 52. They painted them as a bunch of whiners who only complain about things in online echo chambers and compared them to Trump supporters who were just afraid of change, which is a weak argument without any supplemental evidence. Not to mention kind of belittling and insulting.

So, no, I don't believe I shifted any goal posts nor do I believe I ignored any data. If someone says that the New 52 was a massive critical success, it's not biased to bring up the fact that, actually, a lot of fans and critics were turned off by the New 52 and the changes brought about were controversial to say the least. But instead of acknowledging that, the discussion turned into one of cherry-picked evidence to show that anyone who disliked New 52 was "wrong" and "see, all these other ratings said it was great." So, I don't think it should be seen as "shifting goal posts" to contradict cherry-picked evidence with evidence that shows a broader picture.

I've been pretty open saying that I was on board with the New 52 at the start and that there are some gems from that time. My opinion on the New 52 in general, however, changed over time. I was also pretty open in saying that if you LIKE the New 52, that's great and you're entitled to like it. But that's a personal opinion, one that's still valid, but that should still be acknowledged as in the minority. And to belittle the opinions of people who didn't like it and say that they "just don't like change" when that's contrary to what's actually on the record is just disingenuous. The negative reactions to the New 52 and the reasons people had for disliking it are well-documented.

And if the New 52 was really so popular with the majority of "real" fans, it shouldn't be seen as "biased" to simply ask the question: then why did DC see the need to sweep it all under the rug in the way that they have?

I apologize if my tone was misconstrued, but I don't think I shifted any goalposts. The door to a discussion about the critical consensus surrounding that time in DC's history was opened.

[ducklord]

Glad to see someone make the attempt to straighten out the continuity and series of events.

I long since ignored DC and their never-ending "universe altering cosmic events" to set a status quo they like and want to work in.

I can choose for myself which continuities and iterations of the characters I want to read and which ones I hold true.


The thing about this tangled ball of yarn that DC has created out of their character continuities and timeline histories. Is that they would seemingly need an event, to explain away all the other events, reboots and revisions. Which would likely make things worse three years from that event.

I don't know if that was an honest attempt to straighten out continuity as much as it was a silly, stream-of-consciousness attempt at "wit" on my part.

In my honest opinion, continuity in a shared universe works best when it's like an extra little bonus that you weren't expecting. "Hey, remember when this character that's guest starring in this book you like did that thing over in his book? We did too, and now it's gonna pay off in a cool way! Have a cookie!" And sometimes, when it's woven together really, REALLY well, it can damn well make you cry (e.g the climax of Avengers: Endgame).